How do you measure sound stage?
Mar 23, 2024 at 3:20 PM Post #841 of 878
If you’re not opposed to ABX, then you have what you need to prove conclusively that all things being equal, DACs and amps can sound different. Set up the test and do it for yourself.

Placebo, demands for ABX testing and discussion about the effect of bias are only allowed in this group. We were banished from the rest of head fi many years ago. Its mentioned in the terms of service if you want to look it up.
 
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Mar 23, 2024 at 3:22 PM Post #842 of 878
This is useful: here's a perfect example of someone stating something totally ridiculous as though it were fact, with no evidence and no humility.

Albert Einstein and Richard Feynman and (take your pick) certainly did stupid things.

But will the poster at issue humbly recognize his mistake?

Therein lies the rub.
No argument with you on this. IMO, Bigshot creates as much conflict here as those he accuses of the same. We recently had a nice quiet few months here with reasonable conversation. Now correlation isn’t necessarily causation, but the quiet period aligned with a paucity of his posts.
 
Mar 23, 2024 at 3:25 PM Post #844 of 878
If you’re not opposed to ABX, then you have what you need to prove conclusively that all things being equal, DACs and amps can sound different.
That's true. Though I guess if we get scientific about it, I have what I need to prove conclusively that I can hear differences between certain DACs at a certain time with a certain statistical significance.

Or, now that I think about it, I thought I had what I need: to make the test credible, I need to offer the controls to the contrary party. But no one was willing to take me up on it. And I'm fully aware that doing the test without those controls controlled by the other side would convince no one.
 
Mar 23, 2024 at 3:26 PM Post #845 of 878
There’s a difference between observations made about a general population vs. personal attacks directed against named individual members.
 
Mar 23, 2024 at 3:28 PM Post #846 of 878
No, that's completely wrong. Nothing so ridiculous is in the rules.

Look around and you'll see science is regularly discussed all over the place.

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Disappointingly, it largely is. To the point at which the title of the Cables Subforum has “DBT free” in the forum title. And from personal experience, I can tell you that I’ve had many posts deleted outside of sound science for discussing factual, peer reviewed data that doesn’t align with the majority’s subjective opinion.
 
Mar 23, 2024 at 3:35 PM Post #847 of 878
You’re uneccesarily creating conflict in a discussion where others are trying to find some common ground. I posted that as an observation and stand by it. Hardly a personal attack, that’s an evidence based comment.

Edit, not sure why the quote feature didn’t work here, but his is a response to post 845
 
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Mar 23, 2024 at 3:39 PM Post #848 of 878
Disappointingly, it largely is. To the point at which the title of the Cables Subforum has “DBT free” in the forum title. And from personal experience, I can tell you that I’ve had many posts deleted outside of sound science for discussing factual, peer reviewed data that doesn’t align with the majority’s subjective opinion.
Yikes, I'm sorry to hear about those deletions. That's not cool (imho).

But I don't see anything like that in the rules....?

https://www.head-fi.org/articles/posting-guidelines.14048/

(it does say, in the interest of forum civility, to express everything as your opinion, even when posting about science. Which I suppose is what I also have been trying to get to happen all this time too)
 
Mar 23, 2024 at 3:48 PM Post #849 of 878
Yikes, I'm sorry to hear about those deletions. That's not cool (imho).

But I don't see anything like that in the rules....?

https://www.head-fi.org/articles/posting-guidelines.14048/

(it does say, in the interest of forum civility, to express everything as your opinion, even when posting about science. Which I suppose is what I also have been trying to get to happen all this time too)

It’s actually partially understandable. Advertising vendors provide the capital a large site like head-fi needs to pay for operations. As much as I don’t like it, posts that get too far into questioning the claims of those vendors and their customers certainly don’t make they paying vendors happy. It’s a fine line, often frustrating, and requires some adjustment of posting style to avoid insta delete of some posts

Sound Sceince was largely created as a space for those “borderline” discussions, a place where most vendors and customers avoid and therefore the discussions don’t see conflict with the customers of the advertisers that would otherwise often lead to heavy moderation.
 
Mar 24, 2024 at 2:53 AM Post #850 of 878
So this thread is going on with one poster who I think on the edge of AI, and the other always threading the line of only thread crapping with insults. I'm not going to repeat myself about how all these digital interfaces are practically free from jitter or noise: but that's always the rabbit hole of any thread in other sub-forums of Head-Fi. Especially the sponsors. If we had enough time to be able to debunk the snake oil (which is also threatened to be banned in such threads) there's quite some simple observations how digital connections don't effect digital audio sound.
 
Mar 24, 2024 at 3:05 AM Post #851 of 878
When Einstein did stupid things, he was stupid. I’ve seen smart people be stupid, haven’t you?
He wasn't demonstratively stupid. Sure, he was human and might have made mistakes...but being a genius, he more quickly learned from those mistakes. Given today's environment with politics, I also have found his definition for insanity just so somehow gets to be quintessential now. "The definition of insanity is -- doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result."
 
Mar 24, 2024 at 7:42 AM Post #852 of 878
Come on; you let despicable personal attacks and complete lies like this stay hourly without comment, and delete my post simply pointing it out as such?
Really?
No, not “Really?” at all, that’s just your false narrative! It was not personal attacks, let alone “despicable” ones and there were no lies, let alone “complete” ones but as usual, don’t let the actual facts get in the way of a story!
This is why I only point out the most ridiculous, absurd contentions they make - things that are off-the-charts wrong.
Except you don’t, what you actually point out is verifiable facts which you falsely claim are ridiculous, absurd or “off the charts wrong” either because you’ve misread what has been posted or because you don’t know/understand the facts.
I actually am fascinated by the psychology behind the situation where people who are clearly intelligent and informed can defend "facts" that are literally by definition unprovable, and do so without the slightest humility.
I’m actually fascinated by the psychology behind the situation where people who are not clearly intelligent or well informed but fervently believe they are, come to a science discussion forum to defend marketing BS and/or their own made-up false narratives/assertions with nothing but falsehoods and insults “without the slightest humility” and then complain that others are without humility! And then, disappear after their falsehoods have been embarrassingly exposed, only to pop up a few days/weeks later and start all over again and “rinse and repeat” ad infinitum. Why do a few people do that, is it just a poor attempt at trolling, is it just that they’re delusional beyond belief or maybe they just like publicly embarrassing themselves repeatedly?
Is that (literally) right?
Is it banned because it always end up with the recent kind of discussions we’ve seen so far in this thread—mostly not soundstage-related?
Unfortunately yes, it is right, although not necessarily because it goes off topic, it can just be because it contradicts some marketing BS. The posting guidelines states this:
5. If what you want to post includes words/phrases like "placebo," "expectation bias," "ABX," "blind testing," etc., please post it in the Sound Science forum.” - The important but seemingly innocuous word in that rule is “etc.”, it means they can delete your posts or even ban you from a thread entirely, for mentioning anything they deem to be “science” or even just alluding to science and therefore that it only belongs in the Sound Science forum! Here’s an example I received:

You are no longer able to reply to the thread The Ethernet cables, Switches and Network related sound thread. Share your listening experience only.. Reason: Continually bringing Sound Science discussion into a non-Sound Science thread.” - Please Note that the thread title was edited and “Share your listening experience only” was added after I posted. Also note that none of my posts included any of the words prescribed in rule #5 or words/phrases like them. It was just facts related to the Ethernet protocol specifications (eye pattern specs, cat 5 cable specs, etc.).

This is just one example of quite a few times I’ve had posts deleted on the basis that “science belongs in the Sound Science forum, that’s why we have a Sound Science forum” (paraphrasing), even though I’ve been careful not to use the prescribed words or words like them. That “etc.” effectively gives them carte blanche, as dB, Hz, Watts, Volts, Frequency Response, jitter, bytes and numerous other terms can be described as “scientific” and therefore only allowed in the Sound Science forum. Obviously, a high percentage of posts on Head-Fi include one of these terms and therefore reference science implicitly or explicitly but are not deleted. This is because deletion relies on other members “reporting” the posts, is discretionary and only appears to be employed against those using science to refute an audiophile myth/marketing rather than those supporting it, unless some other rule is also being broken (such as insults).
No, that's completely wrong. Nothing so ridiculous is in the rules.
Another great example, “completely wrong” and “so ridiculous” according to you, yet the facts/evidence demonstrates the opposite! And, I’m certainly not the only one who’s had posts deleted or been banned from threads for bringing Sound Science into a thread outside the sound science forum. How many more times are you going make extreme assertions like this (and “without the slightest humility”!!), only to be demonstrated wrong?

G
 
Mar 24, 2024 at 9:26 AM Post #854 of 878
My theory on soundstage is that if a headphone delivers left and right channels accurately, the “soundstage” perception varies greatly from song to song, with most them having a relatively “small soundstage” and closer to center.

The headphones that have a very large perceived soundstage, I feel, have some sort of artificial modulation/forced channel oscillation to make it feel as if sound is coming from different places around you. Also, making quiet sounds quieter and adding a bit of reverb can also contribute to this effect.

Again, this has just always been my internal theory.
 
Mar 24, 2024 at 9:35 AM Post #855 of 878
Einstein actually admitted a time when he was stupid. Many scientists believed the universe was expanding, and we now know it is doing that at an accelerating rate, but Einstein disagreed, saying that it was static. He argued to defend this wrong position, and his ego became so wrapped up in it, he created a “proof” that consisted of a cosmological constant that he knew didn’t exist. He later said that forcing his proof like that was his “greatest stupidity”.

We’ve seen people bolster their ego by ignoring facts and cherry picking evidence to try and prove false claims here in this group… just like Einstein.
 
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