How do you measure sound stage?
Mar 17, 2024 at 9:29 AM Post #646 of 878
"if it’s “beyond timbre or tone” then how can it be “coloured”? With drum kits, “more real sounding” and “sounded so good” are virtually always mutually exclusive and if “I [you] call it a tubey airbag”, doesn’t that mean you’re “making it personal”?

How can anyone rationally respond to all these assertions? They not only appear to be contrary to the actual facts but are clearly self-contradictory, so it’s hard to take them seriously and pretty much impossible not to respond in a way that does not include any reference to personal perception, personal opinion or personal terminology!"

Let's take my qualitative analysis of what I'm hearing out, (no grammar police asserting flaws) I'm no golden tongue, so if my descriptive is not clear so be it. What is quite clear is that these amps sound different, and yes i prefer the more musical soundstage.

Just so we are clear, making a personal observation is not attacking another person nor their personal opinions or observations
 
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Mar 17, 2024 at 10:09 AM Post #647 of 878
Let's take my qualitative analysis of what I'm hearing out …. What is quite clear is that these amps sound different, and yes i prefer the more musical soundstage.
Again, how is it possible to rationally respond to that? You state “let’s take my qualitative analysis out of what I’m hearing” but in the very next sentence you are talking about a “more musical soundstage” which is purely your personal “qualitative analysis”, how is that not a self-contradiction? Furthermore, a “musical soundstage” has no meaning, how can a soundstage be “musical” and what recordings would ever have a musical soundstage?

If addition, I don’t even know if these amps do in fact sound different, it’s certainly possible that they do, that one has been designed to have such poor fidelity that it is actually audibly discernible from the other, but that is very atypical. Generally when audiophiles report amps sounding different it is due to a perceptual or testing error (such as failing to precisely volume match or under/over driving one of them), although without knowing the measurements of these specific amps I can’t know for sure, especially as at least one of them is an esoteric tube amp.

G
 
Mar 17, 2024 at 10:59 AM Post #648 of 878
f it’s “beyond timbre or tone” then how can it be “coloured”? With drum kits, “more real sounding” and “sounded so good” are virtually always mutually exclusive and if “I [you] call it a tubey airbag”, doesn’t that mean you’re “making it personal”?

How can anyone rationally respond to all these assertions? They not only appear to be contrary to the actual facts but are clearly self-contradictory, so it’s hard to take them seriously and pretty much impossible not to respond in a way that does not include any reference to personal perception, personal opinion or personal terminology!

Again, how is it possible to rationally respond to that? You state “let’s take my qualitative analysis out of what I’m hearing” but in the very next sentence you are talking about a “more musical soundstage” which is purely your personal “qualitative analysis”, how is that not a self-contradiction? Furthermore, a “musical soundstage” has no meaning, how can a soundstage be “musical” and what recordings would ever have a musical soundstage?

If addition, I don’t even know if these amps do in fact sound different, it’s certainly possible that they do, that one has been designed to have such poor fidelity that it is actually audibly discernible from the other, but that is very atypical. Generally when audiophiles report amps sounding different it is due to a perceptual or testing error (such as failing to precisely volume match or under/over driving one of them), although without knowing the measurements of these specific amps I can’t know for sure, especially as at least one of them is an esoteric tube amp.

G
What i said was, take my qualitative descriptors of what im hearing that makes it sound different out as i might not have the correct metaphors..... But focus on the facts that it does. I prefer the amp that is providing an enhanced sound stage. But maybe for others it's different.
yes the transparency cult at chord hates external amps period, never mind tube amps. But i learned early to ignore the marketing hype. after SS i decided to ignore the "its all distortion descriptives" for tubes and just go for "the musical utility".
what else can be inferred, that if you are wrong concerning that amps can sound different in sound stage between ss and tubes. what about between SS? how about gilmour design versus R2R versus sigma. what about different chips from burr brown to FPGA. what about between tube amps? what about hybrid amps? Now we can see an evolving matrix of outcomes.
 
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Mar 17, 2024 at 11:37 AM Post #649 of 878
How many more times are you going to post insults like this before you grasp the obvious fact that you yourself are this “guy”?
Lol the "obvious fact", like the so many "facts" you claim that are totally wrong, and the thousands of "facts" you post that you can't prove but still claim as facts.

This guy is bigshot.

I am someone else entirely.

I'd have thought from the content of the posts that even you could manage to tell the difference.

When are you going to learn that idiocy is not an insult as it has nothing to do with any particular person. It is simply a qualification of an assertion.

When will you be capable of reading something as simple as "If you don’t live near RF" and understanding what it means?

For the 44.1^8000th time, it's far more productive to respond to things that people actually say, rather than make up crap they never said and clutch your pearls responding to that.
 
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Mar 17, 2024 at 12:03 PM Post #650 of 878
I’m not sure how that’s relevant but I’ll answer it anyway. I do sometimes listen to music for enjoyment, commonly it’s as part of a film or video presentation, in which case the system I use could just be a TV, a moderate consumer surround system, a commercial cinema or occasionally Apple AirPods. Sometimes I listen to just music recordings for enjoyment in my studio, on one of my above systems, my Sennheiser HPs or on friends’ systems. Format is pretty much irrelevant to me, except in terms of multichannel content. For 2 channel stereo content I don’t really care, a high bit rate MP3 or AAC is usually fine (depending on provenance), as is uncompressed or lossless 16/44. Occasionally I’ll prefer a higher bit/sample rate but only in cases of a different master (which I try not to financially support).

G
Thanks for your answer. It helps me understand how you look at two channel listening. I am guessing as a professional you must have to consider all aspects of production, determine where your priorities lie and what issues to worry about and what not to worry about to get 98-99% of the variables right 100% of the time. Relying on settled theory and practice is a must, and everything else is unimportant. This is how the recording and production industry has operated for decades, and digital recording for more 40 years. I get it.

People who are enthusiastic about music reproduction in their homes/offfice/on the go have a different set of priorities and as with fly fishing or automobile collecting and restoration, tiny things matter to them. Is an extra layer of wax necessary to get the appropriate level of shine, or do you just like the process of waxing and it makes you feel better? Do super hard ball bearings in your reel help your land bigger or more fish, or does it have a different feel in your hand or peace of mind to know its there.

Hobbyist is another term for obsession. HiFi hobbyists fall into several general camps, but all are obsessed to some degree. Some want to own “the best”, and have the resources to pay for it. There is a market for catering to extreme decadence, and along with that comes some hyperbolic marketing, and perhaps dubious claims to justify rarified prices. At the opposite end are people who like to try to build things for them selves, and who like to hack or cheat the market to achieve a given level of performance at a given dollar outlay, and/or just like tinkering in service of their hobby/obsession. In the middle are people on a budget who don’t have extra time or bench skills, but care deeply about their listening experience and are shopping and assembling their rigs to maximize their experience. These folks are also vulnerable to marketing hype, but budgets force harder decisions and more time spent scrutinizing each purchase and addition.

One thing all these groups have in common is a desire to get that last 2 or 3% of resolution, or soundstage separation, or bass definition and slam, and many find it with careful listening in their space with their gear by swapping out equipment, including sources. And people like that, people like me, come to a science thread hoping to understand why one DAC or one cable sounds different to us in our system. We think we are careful shoppers, tinkerers and listeners. To be told our experiences and perceptions are nonsense is hard to process. Maybe the engineers at Chord Electronics or Furutech are under the thumbs of the marketing departments. Or maybe they’re onto something real, even if it only results in barely impeccable difference.

kn
 
Mar 17, 2024 at 2:30 PM Post #651 of 878
We think we are careful shoppers, tinkerers and listeners. To be told our experiences and perceptions are nonsense is hard to process.
Human perception and experience is extremely prone to error. Our sense data is not discretely processed by directly related cognitive centers in the brain, sense data is inextricably linked to multiple intuitive and non-rational neural regions that combine to form what we like to think of as an analysis of the facts only when it is in fact a jumble of post-hoc rationalized dreamscape like impressions based on physiological state and psychological biases that are impossible to ignore.

Thinking you have control over this without knowledge of the truth behind human cognition is worse than knowing you have no control over yourself and are acting on instinct, this is in effect disguising the id as the ego and pretending you have integrated your shadow when you are instead an unwitting slave to it. This is why it took the advent of the scientific method to rise past the subjective quagmire of the past and achieve some level of mastery over reality, we recognize as scientific practitioners that subjective belief must be reinforced by objectively verifiable facts and consistent causal relationships exactly because of the unreliability of the human mind.

https://www.amazon.com/Making-Monsters-Memories-Psychotherapy-Hysteria/dp/0520205839
Assign primacy to your experience at your own peril, forces that are difficult to fathom, let alone recognize in the moment, pull the strings of our psyches without our knowledge or consent.
Maybe the engineers at Chord Electronics or Furutech are under the thumbs of the marketing departments. Or maybe they’re onto something real, even if it only results in barely impeccable difference.

kn
Technically they probably are, and maybe AI will be able to appreciate the difference once those become sentient. To us, the audibility threshold and isolation of confounding variables for positive identification of causality is needed to know if those improvements mean anything practically.
 
Mar 17, 2024 at 2:31 PM Post #652 of 878
The entire point of the previous page or so is lost on me.

Folks say that modern well designed audibly transparent solid state amplifiers sound the same.

A poet offers that his tube amplifier and previous solid state amplifier don’t sound the same at all.

The tube amplifier is measurably different to the solid state amplifier and is not audibly transparent so it may very well sound quite different, no surprises there.

The surprise is that the poet now indicates that we can in fact measure the differences we can hear which is essentially a different way of presenting the original premise that for an amplifier to sound different it cannot measure the same as most do.
 
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Mar 17, 2024 at 5:46 PM Post #653 of 878
One thing all these groups have in common is a desire to get that last 2 or 3% of resolution, or soundstage separation, or bass definition and slam, and many find it with careful listening in their space with their gear by swapping out equipment, including sources.

They are doing it wrong. First of all, inaudible improvements are inaudible. They don't even rise to the level of a 1% improvement. If you're hoping for an improvement from something that is audibly transparent, you're barking up the wrong tree. Secondly, if you are trying to discern subtle differences in sound, the only way to do that is with a line level matched, direct A/B switched, blind comparison with multiple trials. No matter how careful you are in your listening, if two sound samples are very similar, auditory memory and expectation bias will skew your results. You don't need to go to those efforts for two sounds that are clearly different. Blind testing isn't designed for that. It's designed for discerning small differences.

And people like that, people like me, come to a science thread hoping to understand why one DAC or one cable sounds different to us in our system. We think we are careful shoppers, tinkerers and listeners. To be told our experiences and perceptions are nonsense is hard to process.

Well, as a friend once told me when I was having trouble accepting something, "Suck it up." It doesn't matter how difficult it is for you to admit it. What matters is if it is the truth or not. You can sit and deny till your face turns blue, but it isn't going to change the fact that you are human, and as a human, you're subject to the same perceptual errors and biases as every other human.
 
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Mar 17, 2024 at 5:49 PM Post #654 of 878
Lol the "obvious fact", like the so many "facts" you claim that are totally wrong, and the thousands of "facts" you post that you can't prove but still claim as facts.

This guy is bigshot.

Obvious baiting is obvious.
 
Mar 17, 2024 at 6:26 PM Post #655 of 878
if you are trying to discern subtle differences in sound, the only way to do that is with a line level matched, direct A/B switched, blind comparison with multiple trials
Challenge understood and accepted. But as I believe gregario noted, “proving” one well-measuring DAC or cable looms actually sounds reliably different from another in-terms of soundstage or some other parameter to a significant number of listeners will require overwhelming evidence.

kn
 
Mar 17, 2024 at 7:41 PM Post #656 of 878
Gregorio is a professional sound engineer. He can't be "close enough for government work". He requires absolute proof, which he has found to his satisfaction. I'm a little different. I'm a producer, not an engineer, so I'm not using the facts to make things for someone who's paying me. I need proof that applies to my specific circumstances and purposes.

I have a home audio set up in my living room. I want it to sound great and be functional in the way I use it. I don't do blind tests to prove anything to YOU. I do them to test for MYSELF. I screen out perceptual error and expectation bias because I want a stereo that sounds great, and I don't want how I feel to get in the way of discerning the degree of fidelity I'm looking for.

Back when lossy audio was starting to become big, I saw the advantage to having my library of CDs that took up a whole all condensed down to a single hard drive that I could carry with me. But I wasn't willing to make any kind of sacrifice to the sound. I spent the better part of a week full time setting up controlled listening tests of various codecs and data rate settings. I encoded a wide range of music and did dozens and dozens of tests. I kept a chart to determine where the threshold of audibility cut in. I finally determined that the most efficient transparent lossy setting was AAC 256 VBR. It was indistinguishable from the WAV rip and it had the smallest file size for transparency. (Coincidentally, Gregorio did the same tests independently and came to the same conclusion.)

Now am I going to tell you to use AAC 256 VBR? Nope. I didn't do the test for you. I did it for me. What I am going to say is, if sound quality matters to you, go to the effort to actually guarantee that you are achieving optimal fidelity. Don't guess, and don't take high end salesmen's word for it. Most importantly, be intellectually honest. Don't stick to your guns because of your ego. Be prepared to be surprised by what you find.

If you're going to insist on something being true, at least make the effort to prove it to yourself. Don't guess and try to convince other people to follow your guesses. Several times here I've offered to help you do a blind listening test for yourself. You've brushed that aside and kept on arguing based on your guesses and salesmen's pitch. THAT is the problem. You don't care enough to make the effort to know. You shouldn't be arguing with people who have made that effort. And you don't need a fancy peer reviewed paper from the AES that tests exactly what you want tested to know. Get off your butt and do it yourself. Your first test will be sloppy and perhaps not terribly revealing. But it will teach you a lot and get you thinking in a logical manner.
 
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Mar 18, 2024 at 8:18 AM Post #657 of 878
I am guessing as a professional you must have to consider all aspects of production, determine where your priorities lie and what issues to worry about and what not to worry about to get 98-99% of the variables right 100% of the time.
Yes and no. Sure, we don’t have endless time to achieve some notion of perfection, there has to be a concept of good enough, of prioritisation and managing time effectively/productively, of reaching a point where worrying about an issue/s is just wasting time or even counterproductive. I have never been 100% happy with any recording I’ve ever been involved in, even the particularly acclaimed/successful ones. On the other side of the coin, we have years of listening skills training and professional experience, the top commercial studios have custom systems, even custom designed equipment, in custom constructions/environments designed by the best acousticians and costing millions. In addition, we have various tools to facilitate the process, for example, we can “solo” every channel and custom groups of channels. In other words, we can listen to any individual channel/instrument/sound or any combination of instruments in isolation from the rest of the mix, in whatever way and at whatever volume we want. For instance, we can listen to just the lead guitar on it’s own, with no interference or masking by other instruments or just say the lead vocal and lead guitar together, or just the snare drum or kick drum on their own and turn up the volume in the quiet bits. Obviously, this allows us to hear a level of fine detail way beyond what any consumer can, even ignoring the listening skills training and studio systems/environments, because a consumer obviously cannot deconstruct a mix down to it’s constituent channels or manipulate them.
Relying on settled theory and practice is a must, and everything else is unimportant. This is how the recording and production industry has operated for decades, and digital recording for more 40 years. I get it.
I don’t know where on Earth you got this from but it’s pretty much the exact opposite of the actual facts! The whole history of music recording, editing, mixing and mastering from at least the early 1950’s has been based on experimentation, on trying different ways of doing things, of pushing equipment to or beyond it’s intended operating range or even it’s limits and/or employing it in ways never intended or even imagined by it’s designers. This is all in defiance of “settled theory and practice”, not relying on it! With the exception of client and distribution specs which must be met, “everything else” is MORE important than “settled theory and practice”!
Hobbyist is another term for obsession. HiFi hobbyists fall into several general camps, but all are obsessed to some degree.
Obsessed to what degree? Obsessed to the degree of dedicating one’s entire working life to it, to competing with thousands/tens of thousands of graduates for a relative handful of jobs? Hobbyist is another term for someone who is very interested in something or maybe even has some amount of obsession but not enough to put it all on the line, study and practice assiduously and make a living from doing it professionally.
Some want to own “the best”, and have the resources to pay for it.
No, very few want to own the best and almost none have the resources to pay for it. There maybe a few billionaires who employ top acoustic design companies to design and equip custom constructed listening environments but ironically they are almost never obsessed with it, they do it because they have a passing interest and a few million to them is just pocket change. Some/Many audiophiles might want to own the most luxury brand named equipment and some might have the resources to pay for it but very rarely are interested in “the best” or often, even in achieving the mediocre!
One thing all these groups have in common is a desire to get that last 2 or 3% of resolution, or soundstage separation, or bass definition and slam, and many find it with careful listening in their space with their gear by swapping out equipment, including sources.
Again, think about that for a moment … Where do you think that last 2 or 3% of resolution, soundstage, bass definition, etc., comes from? Do you think it’s all an act of god or numerous happy accidents, or do you think it’s been put there by the engineers who created the recordings, that it’s the result of microphone choices and positioning, along with the decisions they made while editing, mixing and mastering? And how do you think the engineers/producer made those decisions? If the engineers couldn’t hear that last 2 or 3% resolution or bass definition, how do you think they chose the right mics, right mic positions and exact processing in order for that last 2 or 3% to be captured in the first place and then exist in the finished master/recording you’re reproducing?
And people like that, people like me, come to a science thread hoping to understand why one DAC or one cable sounds different to us in our system. We think we are careful shoppers, tinkerers and listeners.
And there’s the problem, you think/believe you are careful listeners but you’re not, you cannot be, you do not have the environments, the formal training or the tools/facilities to be, you cannot deconstruct a mix and listen to all the constituent parts in isolation even once, let alone dozens or hundreds of times. Also, you cannot be careful shoppers or tinkerers if the information you are basing your shopping and tinkering choices on is mainly or entirely marketing materials, either directly or via incentivised reviews and cherry picked testimonials.
To be told our experiences and perceptions are nonsense is hard to process.
No one is telling you your experiences and perceptions are nonsense. They obviously are not nonsense, if they were then there would be no music, no stereophonic recordings and most commercial A/V content would not exist! What is nonsense is many of the assertions explaining them, based on the false assumption that they are an accurate representation of reality, of the actual properties of audio signals and sound.
Maybe the engineers at Chord Electronics or Furutech are under the thumbs of the marketing departments. Or maybe they’re onto something real, even if it only results in barely impeccable difference.
If it were something real that results in an audible difference, even just a barely audible difference, then it would be easy to identify that difference in an ABX test, yet no such reliable evidence exists. In addition to a lack of direct evidence for audibility, there is indirect evidence which indicates that the real differences are in fact outside the range of human hearing and therefore inaudible. And lastly, engineers not only at boutique manufacturers but huge multinationals like Sony and even some of the DAC chip manufacturers have been moaning for a couple of decades or more that design is driven by marketing departments rather than engineers. So, what do you think the balance of evidence tells us, is there even any balance of reliable evidence at all, what reliable evidence is on the balancing side of it being a real, audible difference? So rationally, which of your two options is true?

Here again is the problem, many audiophiles are incapable of such a rational conclusion because they don’t have a balance of reliable evidence. What they actually have is an overwhelming amount of unreliable evidence (marketing, incentivised reviews, cherry picked testimonials) and just the odd indirect fact/bit of science, which they dismiss on balance because they do not consider the unreliable evidence to be unreliable and do not understand the science.

As previously, you’re relying on fallacies and completely made-up falsehoods routinely trotted out by audiophiles for decades, to defend the false belief that your experience/perception is the reliable arbiter of fact.

G
 
Mar 18, 2024 at 10:07 AM Post #658 of 878
Gregorio is a professional sound engineer. He can't be "close enough for government work". He requires absolute proof, which he has found to his satisfaction. I'm a little different. I'm a producer, not an engineer, so I'm not using the facts to make things for someone who's paying me. I need proof that applies to my specific circumstances and purposes.

I have a home audio set up in my living room. I want it to sound great and be functional in the way I use it. I don't do blind tests to prove anything to YOU. I do them to test for MYSELF. I screen out perceptual error and expectation bias because I want a stereo that sounds great, and I don't want how I feel to get in the way of discerning the degree of fidelity I'm looking for.

Back when lossy audio was starting to become big, I saw the advantage to having my library of CDs that took up a whole all condensed down to a single hard drive that I could carry with me. But I wasn't willing to make any kind of sacrifice to the sound. I spent the better part of a week full time setting up controlled listening tests of various codecs and data rate settings. I encoded a wide range of music and did dozens and dozens of tests. I kept a chart to determine where the threshold of audibility cut in. I finally determined that the most efficient transparent lossy setting was AAC 256 VBR. It was indistinguishable from the WAV rip and it had the smallest file size for transparency. (Coincidentally, Gregorio did the same tests independently and came to the same conclusion.)

Now am I going to tell you to use AAC 256 VBR? Nope. I didn't do the test for you. I did it for me. What I am going to say is, if sound quality matters to you, go to the effort to actually guarantee that you are achieving optimal fidelity. Don't guess, and don't take high end salesmen's word for it. Most importantly, be intellectually honest. Don't stick to your guns because of your ego. Be prepared to be surprised by what you find.

If you're going to insist on something being true, at least make the effort to prove it to yourself. Don't guess and try to convince other people to follow your guesses. Several times here I've offered to help you do a blind listening test for yourself. You've brushed that aside and kept on arguing based on your guesses and salesmen's pitch. THAT is the problem. You don't care enough to make the effort to know. You shouldn't be arguing with people who have made that effort. And you don't need a fancy peer reviewed paper from the AES that tests exactly what you want tested to know. Get off your butt and do it yourself. Your first test will be sloppy and perhaps not terribly revealing. But it will teach you a lot and get you thinking in a logical manner.
Thanks for sharing your tests of compression levels. That was probably a lot of work to figure out. I just recently ripped all my CDs to disk and now that storage is so cheap, and I was able to copy them all without compression to a 2TB flash drive and have them backed up on a couple of hard drives as well. I also have some MP3s, MP4s and some high resolution files.

As for doing the work, I found that the type of USB hard drive used for matters and can affect the sound of playback with my particular server. Everything matters - YMMV.

I have noted previously that I accept that I need to run the appropriate trials with controls and replication to obtain a level of certainty that I could share on a forum like this to determine whether there are perceptible differences between well-measuring gear and cables, but that will have to wait until I have enough time. My hope would be that a positive test (rejection of the null hypothesis of no difference) would stimulate further discussion in the audio science community to theorize and develop new measures to understand what is going on. No matter what I find when I actually get around to doing that hard work, I will share it.

In the meantime I have done enough listening and blind testing to satisfy myself and to be comfortable with my system as currently configured. It has been a long road, but I am near my destination, until something breaks.

kn
 
Mar 18, 2024 at 10:17 AM Post #659 of 878
Make sure you copy your files to the HDD multiple times over and only keep the ones that sounds the best. You don't want the precious bits of the audio to occupy the part of the disk that's less optimized for playback :)
 

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