How do you measure sound stage?
Feb 22, 2024 at 1:17 PM Post #31 of 878
Equipment doesn’t create soundstage, It just reproduces it. If there’s no blending of channels, soundstage is presented properly. It isn’t an issue in modern sound equipment. If the channel separation is good, you don’t need to think about it.
 
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Feb 22, 2024 at 5:49 PM Post #33 of 878
Equipment doesn’t create soundstage, It just reproduces it. If there’s no blending of channels, soundstage is presented properly. It isn’t an issue in modern sound equipment. If the channel separation is good, you don’t need to think about it.
That's not necessarily true. Vinyl playback (especially on lower quality or poorly calibrated turntables) produce a fake sound stage effect. Many soundbars also produce an intentionally wide (again fake) sound stage sound. Granted that in either case it is not a sound stage in the recording or mix but it is created by the equipment.
 
Feb 22, 2024 at 6:18 PM Post #34 of 878
LPs had comparably poor channel separation. That isn’t a problem with modern digital audio. Signal processing like in sound bars are deliberate coloration. The headphone signal processing that shall not be named messes with channel separation too. I’m not talking about any of those things. I’m talking 21st century high fidelity.
 
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Feb 23, 2024 at 6:13 AM Post #35 of 878
LPs had comparably poor channel separation.
Yes they had, but nevertheless many people claim LPs have better soundstage than CDs. This just illustrates how the connection between channel separation (objective measure) and soundstage (subjective experience) is not simple at all.
 
Feb 23, 2024 at 6:23 AM Post #36 of 878
That just shows how many people talk about soundstage without having a clue about what it is and how it works. It isn’t some kind of mystical hoodoo. It’s simply placing sound objects between the two channels.
 
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Feb 23, 2024 at 11:10 AM Post #37 of 878
I am posting some references in following posts that I think are relevant to this discussion. I posted these on ASR and a fairly patient and respectful but fierce defense by members ensued of electronics and DACs in particular as being so well engineered and accurate now that there could not possibly be any contribution to soundstage by swapping DACs or amplifiers as has been reported by countless reviewers and hobbyists. The storyline is: “the equipment measures flawlessly on bench tests, human hearing cannot detect timing or loudness errors within the performance envelope of the gear in question, therefore replacing electronics ahead of the transducers in the reproduction chain cannot change how the soundstage is presented in a listening room or via headphones.”

I suggested a general method for an objective “measure” of soundstage, based on basic principles of human hearing and some new research on sound localization at a laboratory at MIT. The purpose would be to test audiophile and reviewer claims of specific gear-related effects on soundstage as reproduced in a complete stereo system. This seemed to strike a nerve. The answers on the forum as I understand them were: 1) (MOST POPULAR) why bother, modern DACs and amplifiers are now “perfect” with respect to human hearing capabilities and the parameters that would affect soundstage (frequency, loudness and timing) - therefore equipment would have to be “badly broken” for a human listener to decipher any soundstage effect due to swapping a specific DAC or amplifier, 2) the work at MIT, while interesting, has limitations, including modest ADC and DACs employed and while state of the art, the algorithms used may not be adequate to distinguish subtle effects, and 3) do a human trial via a blind listening test of your claim that individual gear affect soundstage, but be prepared to have that rejected by the ASR community.

I will provide what I consider the relevant links in posts that follow. I would love to get feedback here.

Full disclosure: after persisting perhaps too long and ignoring the “gear is perfect” answer above, the ASR moderator said this and blocked me from posting further: “I don't see a lot of effort being put into trying to understand, so I'm going to give you a few days off from this thread, so you can maybe digest a little more of what is being said.” He probably did everyone on the site including me a favor.
 
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Feb 23, 2024 at 11:31 AM Post #41 of 878
That just shows how many people talk about soundstage without having a clue about what it is and how it works. It isn’t some kind of mystical hoodoo. It’s simply placing sound objects between the two channels.
How do you define "placing sound objects between the two channels?" What does it mean? Amplitude pan?

What about depth for example? How do you deal with that? I deal with it by trying to incorporate spatial cues that make the sounds appear closer or further away. You speak about these things as if it was totally trivial to just "drop" sounds wherever you want them... ...what makes things ever more complicated is to create stereophony that works both with speakers AND headphones.
 
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Feb 23, 2024 at 11:38 AM Post #42 of 878
Just to briefly explain my idea, I suggest using the equipment and algorithms developed by the MIT researchers to provide an objective non human test of a DAC or any other piece in the electronic reproduction chain ahead of the speakers, holding all other parameters constant (power supply from the wall or power conditioner, all other electronics, the speakers and the room). It would be appropriate to run a parallel human trial (blind testing with statistical analysis) to compare with the machine approach.

The outcome of such a trial could be applied to all elements of the reproduction chain including more controversial elements like power conditioning and cables. I think such a study would actually terrify both sides of the objectivists and subjectivists spectrum. If there is a clear finding that replacing individual pieces of modern electronics in a reproduction chain results in reproducible impacts on soundstage perception, it would force reevaluation of some assumptions. If it turns out cable design can cause reproducible effects on soundstage - Katie bar the door. If on the other hand, both machine and human trials prove out ASR member contention that a cheap Topping DAC with good SINAD Performance is just as good at reproducing soundstage as a top of line DCS DAC with external power supply, and swapping cables and amplifiers is equally without effect, the high end of audio would come under significant scrutiny and the ASR crowd could say we told you so.

kn
 
Feb 23, 2024 at 2:51 PM Post #43 of 878
@knownothing2:
I just don't know where to begin...

Let me tell you a few things that hopefully make you understand why what you are proposing is not a good idea.

Do you know the history of stereophonic sound? A long time ago someone discovered that when humans hear a sound from 2 sound sources (in front of you, but no more than 60 degrees apart) then it seems to them that the sound comes from somewhere inbetween those 2 sound sources. And if the 2 sound sources are not equally loud then it seemed the perceived location of the sound was closer to the louder sound source.
If you place 2 loudspeakers in front of you, one 30 degrees to the left of straight in front, the other 30 degrees to the right of straight in front, and you play a stereo recording then you will experience a sound stage at front of you, between the loudspeakers. (And due to wall reflections and secondary clues in the mix - that in part may be related to reflections in the recording space(s) - you may feel there is some extra width and depth around it).
Now note that of course it is an illusion that the sound seems to come from somewhere inbetween the loudspeakers. In reality the sound is coming from the two loudspeakers. By the way, this stereophonic illusion is not experienced by all humans, a very small percentage of humans do not.
There are different types of stereo recordings. Some only "pan" different instruments somewhere inbetween the speakers by means of the left-right level ratio. Some use additional effects. Some of the instruments may have been recorded with microphones in a room. Some instruments in one room, and others in other rooms. Some instruments may be electronic and directly "panned" into the mix. Some may have artificial reverb added. A "trillion" other special effects may have been applied to some of them, and not to others.
A recording of a live orchestra often will be made using many different microphones, in many different positions.

The stereophonic illusion is not the same as localizing a sound in real life.

What do you want to test?
-How that M.I.T. alogorithm localizes sounds in an average stereo music recording? By letting the algorithm analyse the stereo signal coming from the DAC directly?
Well, hopefully you will understand by now that that is a terrible idea, because an average stereo recording does not have the sound locations coded in a similar way as it is coded into the sounds going into your ears when listening to a natural sound in your environment, not even close!



Have you heard of Impulcifer (free software by jaakkopasanen), or of the Smyth Realiser A16 (or A8)?

Using any of these you can get a very realistic binaural simulation of loudspeakers over headphones, based on personal measurements.
First with in-ear-microphones test signals are recorded that are played over real loudspeakers in a room. Next test signals are recorded played by your headphones on your head.
The first measurement is to determine which changes sound undergoes on it's way from each loudspeaker to both your ears. Including reflections and reverberations of the room. And including the colorations by bending around your head and into your ears (head related transfer function), applied to all components of the sound entering your ears (direct and indirect).
The second measurement is to measure the frequency response of your headphones on your head.

At playback time all the same changes that happen on the way to your head can be applied to any input signal. Next the inverse eq of your headphones frequency response is applied to compensate for the influence of your headphones.

The result is that it seems as if you are listening to loudspeakers. In particular that the sound seems to come from a distance. When listening to stereo over 2 virtual loudspeakers you will experience a soundstage at a distance in front of you, for example 3 meters (if you measured loudspeakers 3 meters in fron of you).

In fact you are listening now to a combination of two "spatial audio rendering concepts". The first is the stereophonic illusion of sound from 2 loudspeakers in a room. And the second the binaural simulation of those loudspeakers in a room through headphones. The second part is in fact very closely related to how humans localize natural sounds in their natural environment.

Why am I telling you all this?

Because hopefully it can give you an idea of the scale on which things happen in the signal path that relate to soundstage. The difference between the input signals for such a binauralising system and the output signals that are being send to the headphones is the result of extensive digital processing and are massive and easily measurable. In fact the weakest link in the concept is the placement of the in-ear-microphones. A 1 mm shift in position of the microphones will give clearly measurable differences in results, even if the illusion of virtual speakers afterwards will still possibly be equally good! The differences are not at the scale of differences between DACs or amps let alone total audiophoolery like special power strips etc. The influence of these things, in comparison to a small shift of the microphone, is "0.0000", absolutely meaningless.
Another important thing to note is the role of the personal hrtf of the user. Using one person's measurement may sound totally strange and inconvincing to another person. And these differences also are many orders of magnitude above the differences between DACs and amps.

Soundstage has nothing to do with "magical" "unknown" "now immeasurable" properties of DACs and amps or something like that. Soundstage is a result of what recording you are playing and how you deliver it to your ears. And in some situations your personal hrtf will play a role in that as well. Ultimately, it are your brains that create the soundstage. And that is a complicated process. But it has nothing, nothing at all, to do with DACs and amps, unless they are unbelievably bad.
 
Feb 23, 2024 at 8:23 PM Post #44 of 878
It sounds like you’re setting up to measure human perception, not equipment. Home audio components are a matter of objective fidelity. Perception is a subjective impression of what you think the sound is like, filtered through bias, perceptual error and raw psychology. To be honest, I don’t have a lot of interest in objectively testing subjective impressions. It never seems to lead to snything useful and just generates a lot of gum flapping.
 
Feb 24, 2024 at 9:30 AM Post #45 of 878
Just to briefly explain my idea, I suggest using the equipment and algorithms developed by the MIT researchers to provide an objective non human test of a DAC or any other piece in the electronic reproduction chain ahead of the speakers, holding all other parameters constant (power supply from the wall or power conditioner, all other electronics, the speakers and the room). It would be appropriate to run a parallel human trial (blind testing with statistical analysis) to compare with the machine approach.

The outcome of such a trial could be applied to all elements of the reproduction chain including more controversial elements like power conditioning and cables. I think such a study would actually terrify both sides of the objectivists and subjectivists spectrum. If there is a clear finding that replacing individual pieces of modern electronics in a reproduction chain results in reproducible impacts on soundstage perception, it would force reevaluation of some assumptions. If it turns out cable design can cause reproducible effects on soundstage - Katie bar the door. If on the other hand, both machine and human trials prove out ASR member contention that a cheap Topping DAC with good SINAD Performance is just as good at reproducing soundstage as a top of line DCS DAC with external power supply, and swapping cables and amplifiers is equally without effect, the high end of audio would come under significant scrutiny and the ASR crowd could say we told you so.

kn
Good idea. :thumbsup: AI can probably play a role at some point too.
 
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