[mikel51]

This summer, I got an IPOD. I really love it. It changes the way I listen to music while on the go with all my favorite CDs in order by Artist and playlists of my favorite cuts. However, I find the sound quality is clearly not up to the CDs after compression at alt preset standard.

This makes me want to rip all of my CDs with EAC and replace my CD player (Anthem tube CD player) with a hard disc based source. It would be fantastic to be able to play any disc from my collection without having to physically find it in the chaos of the discs. It seems to me, that uncompressed wav files played from a hard drive, with the appropriate equipment, should sound as good as a good CD player.

I have a pretty decent stereo system (EAR tube preamp, Magnepan 3.3R speakers, Conrad Johnson Sonographe power amp). I don't know much about the state-of-the-art of PC base music systems.

So what do you recommend. Should I build a PC with a great sound card and feed it into my preamp? Should I use an external DAC, and if so, what grade of sound card do I need to feed it?

 

[Stephonovich]

There seems to be two camps on this matter here; one believes PC audio sucks, no matter what. The other thinks it can be brought up to acceptable levels. I'm in the latter camp.

Right now, I'm running off of a SB Live! card. Likely one of the worst you'll ever find. However, with kxProject drivers replacing the standard ones, and QCD 4 playing the music with the MAD plugin, and my cans plugged into the rear-out jack, it's not bad. Pretty good, actually. Anyways...

The two soundcards usually recommended here are Creative's Audigy 2, and M-Audio's Revolution. The Audigy has much better game support. The Revo is reported to have slightly better music quality. I haven't heard either, so I can't comment.

If I had the money, I'd get both, and use the Revo for music, and the Audigy for games. But that's just me.

(-:Stephonovich

 

[vrao81]

If you have the money to spend I'd recommend getting an M-Audio Audiophile 24/96 or equivalent sound card and hooking up an external DAC (one of the MSB DAC's would be a good choice).

 

[Dude]

Hey Steph i'm in the same boat as you,i have a soundblaster live also and looking to upgrade. i'm thinking of getting a dac though. might come in handy for some of my future purchases.

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally posted by Stephonovich There seems to be two camps on this matter here; one believes PC audio sucks, no matter what. The other thinks it can be brought up to acceptable levels. I'm in the latter camp.

Me too... I think people who dismiss PC audio either have a preexisting prejudice which affects their ears, or simply have never heard a decent PC-based setup.

The thing with EMI inside PC's is overblown too. It isn't that it's electrically quiet inside a PC, but often that a home setup can be just as noisy with everything so close together and various components interfering electrically in different ways -- think power supplies, CD transports and laser mechanisms, LCD displays, various chips, etc. The primary EMI source inside PC's is from fans, but with a good soundcard it's down below -96dB.

Anyway, to the thread starter -- try a higher end, good quality sound card (Terratec EWX 24/96, M-Audio Audiophile 24/96, some of the higher end M-Audio Deltas, there are others that are better/pricier)... if the SQ doesn't satisfy, then an external DAC is definitely an option. IMO, no need to spend for one unless you need one.

BTW, in my opinion uncompressed .WAV files played from a hard drive have the potential to sound better than a CD. Why? Because when you "rip" a CD using a secure audio grabber like EAC, you're basically getting a bit-perfect copy (or darn close)... in other words, you're neatly bypassing transport-related issues and potential uncorrected errors that happen with the usual redbook CD playback method.

 

[pbirkett]

Quote:

Originally posted by fewtch Me too... I think people who dismiss PC audio either have a preexisting prejudice which affects their ears, or simply have never heard a decent PC-based setup.

Me three

When I told some dudes on a hifi board about how my EWX24/96 trounced a low cost, yet certainly not bad external DAC and DVD player, they did not seem to accept this as a possibility. The RFI thing is overblown IMO too.

Think about it logically though. This £130 soundcard can compete with £500 players without much trouble - theres the lack of transport issues as you have already touched on, but with your £130 you are paying for just the DA/AD converters and other such electronics, no PSU, no case, no transport, and thus the savings are passed on likewise.

I have not heard a sub £500 player I'd rather have, and I've heard £1k players which only sounded a little better to my ears. The performance of a quality 24-bit soundcard is often understimated IMO/.

 

[MD1032]

Is there a difference between the external USB audiophile and the sound card audiophile? I'd like the get the card version because it costs a heck of a lot less. Also, I'm recently hearing of this Xitel Hi-Fi Pro. Is it any good? It uses RCA output, so I don't know if it would work.

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally posted by MD1032 Is there a difference between the external USB audiophile and the sound card audiophile? I'd like the get the card version because it costs a heck of a lot less. Also, I'm recently hearing of this Xitel Hi-Fi Pro. Is it any good? It uses RCA output, so I don't know if it would work.

Well, the external version is simpler to use (the drivers are more basic), has a headphone jack (probably not very good) and is even worse for gaming than the internal card. It may be quieter than the internal card and thus sound better, but you might want to upgrade the wall wart it comes with to something linear regulated. Also, I wouldn't use it with motherboard-based USB (too buggy and unstable) but would recommend getting a separate USB card if you decide to go that route -- they're fairly cheap and potentially much less problematic than using one of the USB slots built onto a motherboard.

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally posted by pbirkett When I told some dudes on a hifi board about how my EWX24/96 trounced a low cost, yet certainly not bad external DAC and DVD player, they did not seem to accept this as a possibility. The RFI thing is overblown IMO too.

It gets rather amusing to me sometimes... like when reading that thread on the $350 Perreaux SXH-1 amp, people discovering an audible hum problem and some just saying "oh well, it doesn't bother me at normal listening levels." At the same time I'm here using a sound card with a noise floor essentially at the level of digital silence, yet some of these people may be complaining about how noisy it is inside a PC, etc...

BTW, you know how people say certain CD players sound bright, some sound too dark, etc... well -- somebody tell me whether this is going to sound bright or dark (this is the frequency response of my sound card from 0 Hz to 20 KHz:

Mmmm... give me "perfectly neutral" anyday, thanks.

 

[Spent&Bent]

Quote:

Originally posted by fewtch It gets rather amusing to me sometimes... like when reading that thread on the $350 Perreaux SXH-1 amp, people discovering an audible hum problem and some just saying "oh well, it doesn't bother me at normal listening levels." At the same time I'm here using a sound card with a noise floor essentially at the level of digital silence, yet some of these people may be complaining about how noisy it is inside a PC, etc... BTW, you know how people say certain CD players sound bright, some sound too dark, etc... well -- somebody tell me whether this is going to sound bright or dark (this is the frequency response of my sound card from 0 Hz to 20 KHz: Mmmm... give me "perfectly neutral" anyday, thanks.

Fewtch, you are so right, i can get hugely amused by doing blind tests with myself and others and watching the results.
Often a lot of difference is between the ears of the listener and the size of his wallet i think.
I understand that mentioning blind tests is flaming here to some people, but i could not resist.

 

[aphex944]

That graph does not say much because you are using the digital out(or digital internal loopback), no? Looks like it may be seeing what the data is before the DAC stage. I've used RMAA a lot, and the program is pretty crappy. It gives unrealistic THD levels. I checked the datasheet for the opamp on my card(MX300), and it was -much- higher in distortion than the program read.

But no analog output, no matter how good, is going to have a perfectly flat frequency response, it's just not in the nature of audio. The digital out of your soundcard should be bit-for-bit perfect of what is being fed to it, but the frequency response is going to change a lot once you flip over to analog.

I also hate it when people slam PC audio so much. I just purchased an M-Audio Sonica, and it is the simplest device I have ever seen, which is great. Just a DAC and 2 capacitors in the signal path(which I am replacing soon). It sounds so much better than my MX300 did.

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally posted by aphex944 That graph does not say much because you are using the digital out(or digital internal loopback), no?

No. This was an analog loopback test (analog inputs to analog outputs) -- using a cheap, POS RCA to RCA cable from Radio Shack, no less... the plugs weren't even gold plated.

Quote:

But no analog output, no matter how good, is going to have a perfectly flat frequency response, it's just not in the nature of audio. The digital out of your soundcard should be bit-for-bit perfect of what is being fed to it, but the frequency response is going to change a lot once you flip over to analog.

There's no reason I can think of why DAC->ADC should affect frequency response, provided the analog circuitry doesn't mess with it (with a proper circuit it won't be "perfect" but should be pretty darn close). Injection of noise and other types of distortion... that's a different story (but also depends on the circuitry).

Edit -- as far as RMAA goes, I'll take your word for it... it can't be that terrible though, if you consider that the PPA team used it rather extensively in testing/tweaking the PPA amp. Some pretty knowledgeable folk there, I think...

 

[lan]

Quote:

Originally posted by MD1032 Is there a difference between the external USB audiophile and the sound card audiophile?

Just get the internal one. The $ you save can be used for something else.

mikel51, I would get an external DAC of your sonic preferences and the Audiophile 24/96 (because it's cheap and supports external sync). If you can clock the soundcard from an external source, you'd get a boost.

 

[arnaud]

Quote:

Originally posted by fewtch BTW, you know how people say certain CD players sound bright, some sound too dark, etc... well -- somebody tell me whether this is going to sound bright or dark (this is the frequency response of my sound card from 0 Hz to 20 KHz Mmmm... give me "perfectly neutral" anyday, thanks.

fewtch,

If it was only about a flat FRF, the mysterious quest for a musical CD player (or any other audio component) would have long been achieved.

Using technical data to backup your ideas is fine, as long as you understand what can be interpreted from it, and what can NOT.

What I am saying here is that, yes, a non-flat response will be audible, but no, a flat-response does not guarantee a neutral listening. What about out-of-band noise, harmonic distortion, dynamic compression, and many other common phenomena that I can't even name?

Believe me, I have faith in technical data, this is my job. However, having listened to quite a bit of audio equipment, having also designed audio equipment (loudspeakers), I can assure you this: be very careful when judging audio equipment through a very limited set of data...

cheers,

Arnaud.

 

[Zoomie]

I have an M-Audio Sonica Theater (it's USB), for my laptop. I am really happy with it for the most part. It has both analog and digital out as well as an analog line in. I have used it with and without an outboard DAC and it performs quite well on its own.

In reference to the onboard USB problems, I agree that USB can be a temperamental pig sometimes, but I have not found that with my laptop yet. However, for only a few dollars, you can pick up a USB hub with a dedicated power supply that solves most of the woes of onboard. I plan to try this soon. Although if are using a desktop, the other PCI options might be more practical.