How do I compare transient speeds of two receivers?
Jan 31, 2022 at 2:50 PM Post #16 of 70
Reading the OP it doesn’t seem likely that exhaustive testing had taken place, similar in many ways to the majority of reviews and comparisons he was trying to make some sense of ?
So without supplying a scope trace image how do we convey any perceived difference in transient response in a review or forum post ?
Fast,
Sharp,
Snappy,
 
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Jan 31, 2022 at 3:02 PM Post #17 of 70
I would hope that a reviewer would make the effort to base his conclusions on controlled objective testing. Otherwise his review is no better than anyone else’s.

There isn’t much point trying to make sense of opinions based on anecdotal evidence and colored by bias.
 
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Jan 31, 2022 at 3:54 PM Post #19 of 70
Experienced listeners have the same all too human ears, and the same all too human predilection to bias. The difference between good reviewers and lousy ones isn’t how good they hear, it’s how knowledgeable they are on the principles of sound reproduction, and the quality of their testing and research into the performance of the gear they’re reviewing. The problem is that most DACs and amps are capable of achieving audible transparency. That means that one transparent DAC sounds exactly the same as any other transparent DAC to human ears. Reviewers are left with very little to say about audible differences. So they focus on inaudible differences— noise floors so low no one would ever hear them in normal use, and ultrasonic frequencies that human ears aren’t equipped to detect. None of those differences matter when you sit down to listen to music.

…of course it doesn’t help that many (if not most) reviewers are directly or indirectly financially supported by manufacturers. It’s in their interest to keep consumers confused.
 
Jan 31, 2022 at 3:56 PM Post #20 of 70
Consensus is a lousy way to discern the truth. In fact, that is a classic logical fallacy.
 
Jan 31, 2022 at 5:42 PM Post #22 of 70
See the Stereo Review link in my sig. page 78
 
Jan 31, 2022 at 6:00 PM Post #23 of 70
From 1987 ?
Two years later than that I bought a Rotel RB980BX that lasted the next 20 years, when it was replaced by a McCormack DNA225, was there a difference ?
With the current speakers …. Yes …
And no it wasn’t subtle.
Waste of time going any further so your reply will allow you the last word.
 
Jan 31, 2022 at 6:29 PM Post #24 of 70
With the current speakers …. Yes …
And no it wasn’t subtle.
Maybe the Rotel wasn't performing up to spec anymore? (Some types of capacitors for example can cause problems after many years of use, isn't that right?)
Or maybe your speakers are a very demanding load for the amp? (Nobody is saying every amp is audibly transparent under all conditions, but if an amp is designed for transparency - which is mostly the case - and not defective then if it is used within correct power limits and with a proper load impedance then it will be transparent).
Lastly: placebo can also cause "non subtle" differences in perception.
 
Jan 31, 2022 at 6:39 PM Post #25 of 70
was there a difference ?
With the current speakers …. Yes …And no it wasn’t subtle.

Did you level match?
Did you do a direct A/B switched comparison?

I'm pretty sure that you didn't. You probably depended on your impression which was highly colored by bias and faulty auditory memory. I'm afraid all of us humans are subject to that.
 
Feb 1, 2022 at 6:19 AM Post #26 of 70
Against my better judgement but here goes,
Traded the Rotel when buying the current amp, was checked out and given a fair price for it,
Speakers involved were hand made 1/4 wave transmission lines with 2 6 1/2” scan speak woofers and a scan speak illuminator tweeter in a “2 1/2 way” MTM layout, Jantzen silver in oil crossover caps and foil in wax paper air cored inductors and Vishay resistors for the crossovers, which were built on 2 isolated boards and Bi wired, crossovers designed on freely available software and then fined tuned as a pair by ear and finally tested with Pink noise and a laptop based 3rd octave analyser in mono in room,
with the Mic at the preferred listening position, the last step done over a couple of months, I was in no hurry …
All up a two year project finally finished and enjoyed for over a year before the amp upgrade,
Now after all that do you think it’s likely I wouldn’t notice the obvious differences the new amp made ?
Placebo, level matching, Bias, poor auditory memory, A/B testing etc, etc…
I don’t think so ….
 
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Feb 1, 2022 at 6:36 AM Post #27 of 70
Did you set the amps side by side, level match, play the same recording in both, and switch from one to the other? How much time was there between when you heard the old amp and when you heard the new one?
 
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Feb 1, 2022 at 6:43 AM Post #28 of 70
Against my better judgement but here goes,
Traded the Rotel when buying the current amp, was checked out and given a fair price for it,
Speakers involved were hand made 1/4 wave transmission lines with 2 6 1/2” scan speak woofers and a scan speak illuminator tweeter in a “2 1/2 way” MTM layout, Jantzen silver in oil crossover caps and foil in wax paper air cored inductors and Vishay resistors for the crossovers, which were built on 2 isolated boards and Bi wired, crossovers designed on freely available software and then fined tuned as a pair by ear and finally tested with Pink noise and a laptop based 3rd octave analyser in mono in room,
with the Mic at the preferred listening position, the last step done over a couple of months, I was in no hurry …
All up a two year project finally finished and enjoyed for over a year before the amp upgrade,
Now after all that do you think it’s likely I wouldn’t notice the obvious differences the new amp made ?
Placebo, level matching, Bias, poor auditory memory, A/B testing etc, etc…
I don’t think so ….
‘thumbs up” (just so I can give you ‘two of them’!)

(you know that doesn’t discount that others ‘more scientific‘ than you have already stated that your Rotel may have ‘worn out’. (must have gradually become ‘less than transparent’ so you never noticed..))
is the new amp slow? surely your creative brain hemisphere wants to use some english language descriptive words to ‘try to convey’ aspects of its’ sound?

Does its spec sheet acknowledge the (only) four measurements/aspects that are needed to hit ‘transparency’?

apologies op, but ‘sound science’ threads are so needlessly hostile, which I can only assume is relating to the typical social skills I see with ‘stereotypical science types’, that ‘venting’ (either through laughter of mirth) is normal for me.
Jester seems to know this (the ‘eyes‘ tell!)

Jester comes in, seems rationale, progresses the OPs query (even suggesting some potential ‘acceptable language terms’, and contributing that a uniform/agreed ‘common definitions‘ pool might benefit ‘everyone’.

so helpful, so polite, relatively patient, and able to expose the biggots for being totally unreasonable.
of course ‘well built’ transparent equipment can be bought for little money (if well researched) that sounds ‘no different’ to placebo/marketing influenced ‘more expensive’ parts.
the money clearly goes to aesthetics and heavy parts —we all like weight in our ‘good kit’-about the only thing that DOES correlate, at a high factorial, to great sound quality ‘through the decades’ (at least until THX chip amps came to market)

Jester, you beautiful stranger, you know that much of what you listed as going into your speakers would have many, in this ‘forum wing’, denounce you as mad…
shame;, cause I loved the style with which you moved.

my guess is things are about to go nuclear/toxic with regards to your comments… (popcorn ready)
doesn’t make sense to me as, in ANY OTHER thread, you would have progressed the OPs discussion and actually be the most useful contributor… (here you have become a ‘target’ that no doubt NEEDS educating)
do you know where your ‘detents’ are?
 
Feb 1, 2022 at 6:54 AM Post #29 of 70
I’m just asking simple questions about how the comparison was made. My questions can be answered in a couple of sentences, but instead there’s paragraphs of information I never asked for and no answers to my simple questions. Why is that?

I’m not being insulting or rude. I’m just asking a couple of relevant questions.
 
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Feb 1, 2022 at 6:54 AM Post #30 of 70
Did you set the amps side by side, level match, play the same recording in both, and switch from one to the other? How much time was there between when you heard the old amp and when you heard the new one?
you were told some of these things- you are pushing your agenda: how does it help anyone (we know your point of view- you LOVE to repeat it)

who cares? you were asked a potentially rhetoric question ; why must everyone in the world know ‘less than you’? it makes me laugh cause how have you ever learned anything?

enjoy blinkers-enjoy feeling you are right- enjoy derailing threads-enjoy ‘your science’ (through filters that support your bias).

Jester said ‘against my better judgement (but here goes…)’ and probably knew you’d go down that path.
Jester is worth learning from, but being so predictable with regards to argumentative methods doesn’t help anyone… (does it make you feel like ye are helping/ anyone?) I see all sorts of dialogue loops given in sound science that could also be used to also break down your own arguments, but the way everything is reframed as if the toxic are the sane is ‘too silly for words’.

is there a lot of practical, useful discussion that happens in this ‘wing’ of headfi, or have the scientifically sound moved to other ‘less embarrassing social clubs’, or found safety in numbers and enjoy ‘backing each others’ never ending loops that always place them at ‘the centre of inowledge’.

funny thing with knowledge; a mind open to learning generally gains more of it (knowledge)
i find it amusing that most of the sciency techs I know wouldnt be caught dead near the zealots that patrol these posts.

(and they are very well regarded in their respective fields, I guess that has made them ‘sociable’ too)
 

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