How Chord M-Scaler works in layman's terms
Feb 22, 2023 at 10:13 AM Post #31 of 109
Everything related to the signal path does matter.

The issue is, does it matter enough to be audible, and if so, enough to be worth what it costs.
I would argue that if it doesn't matter enough to be audible to a given person, it doesn't (or shouldn't) matter to that person. The problem with magazines like Stereophile is that they claim every little thing makes an audible difference, without backing up that claim with any sort of blind A/B testing. In other words, they don't make any effort to account for confirmation bias.
 
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Feb 22, 2023 at 10:35 AM Post #32 of 109
I would argue that if it doesn't matter enough to be audible to a given person, it doesn't (or shouldn't) matter to that person. The problem with magazines like Stereophile is that they claim every little thing makes an audible difference, without backing up that claim with any sort of blind A/B testing. In other words, they don't make any effort to account for confirmation bias.
Well, as was pointed out, the magazines live and die by "being able to hear" those differences and evaluate them. And likely they like more than they don't like for the advertisers' sakes, as was also pointed out.

But I suspect most audiophiles don't take what they say too seriously, but more as a jumping-off point to doing their own research. For example, to discover new gear they might not have heard of.

I think confirmation bias could be a real problem with the magazines, but I suspect it's much less so with buyers laying down their own money. On average, people who don't have a lot of money are likely to be really careful to make sure they're getting real value for what they spend. And people who have a lot of money generally have it because they're already good at not spending on unnecessary stuff. To quote Bill Gates from the immortal "Homer Starts an Internet Company" episode, "I didn't get rich by writing a lot of checks."

Every audiophile I know listens very hard to a new piece of gear, trying at some level not to like it so that they don't have to spend however many $1000 it costs. That's always me, and was doubly my experience with the M-Scaler. When I first put the M-Scaler in, I didn't hear a big difference in any of the ways I was expecting and was extremely relieved since I could get that $5000 back. But I found over time that whenever I put it in bypass mode the music was substantially less pleasing. Now I can't listen without it.

This is NOT confirmation bias; this is simply accepting the joy I feel when I'm listening as real. And I know it's real because, to this day, I'd sure as hell like to have that $5k back.
 
Feb 22, 2023 at 10:52 AM Post #33 of 109
When I first put the M-Scaler in, I didn't hear a big difference in any of the ways I was expecting and was extremely relieved since I could get that $5000 back. But I found over time that whenever I put it in bypass mode the music was substantially less pleasing. Now I can't listen without it.

This is NOT confirmation bias; this is simply accepting the joy I feel when I'm listening as real. And I know it's real because, to this day, I'd sure as hell like to have that $5k back.
These kind of stories mean exactly nothing in this subforum. Did you do a level matched double blind ABX?
All humans have biases, conscious and subconscious. Your hearing perception is a construction by the brain using many things more than the actual sound. Nobody can control that by thoughts of whatever kind.
 
Feb 22, 2023 at 10:58 AM Post #34 of 109
These kind of stories mean exactly nothing in this subforum. Did you do a level matched double blind ABX?
All humans have biases, conscious and subconscious. Your hearing perception is a construction by the brain using many things more than the actual sound. Nobody can control that by thoughts of whatever kind.
Your comment means exactly nothing in the real world, where real people make decisions based on their own real priorities and values.
 
Feb 22, 2023 at 3:19 PM Post #35 of 109
If it isn't audible, it doesn't matter.

Your comment means exactly nothing in the real world, where real people make decisions based on their own real biases and misconceptions.

FTFY
 
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Feb 22, 2023 at 3:37 PM Post #37 of 109
Believe it or not, some people actually *do* know things you don't know. You have to be able to realize that if you ever want to learn new things.

You've been offered a clue. Do with it what you want. We will judge how well you do.
 
Feb 22, 2023 at 3:52 PM Post #39 of 109
Well, then I'll point out that this probably isn't the proper forum for subjective preferences. The other forums in Head-Fi are better for that. Here we talk about objective facts and measurements, not whether we *like* something or not. If you're going to say something is better than something else because your impression of it is better, you are going to find yourself in trouble here a lot. In the other forums at Head-Fi, that kind of thing is encouraged. So don't get mad at us for doing what we do. Go to the forums that will appreciate your casual comments.

I'm not arguing or fighting with you, just pointing out the charter of this forum.
 
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Feb 22, 2023 at 6:01 PM Post #40 of 109
Well, then I'll point out that this probably isn't the proper forum for subjective preferences. The other forums in Head-Fi are better for that. Here we talk about objective facts and measurements, not whether we *like* something or not. If you're going to say something is better than something else because your impression of it is better, you are going to find yourself in trouble here a lot. In the other forums at Head-Fi, that kind of thing is encouraged. So don't get mad at us for doing what we do. Go to the forums that will appreciate your casual comments.

I'm not arguing or fighting with you, just pointing out the charter of this forum.
Fair enough. I didn't even know forums have "charters".
 
Feb 22, 2023 at 7:08 PM Post #41 of 109
Yeah, it sure is weird. But discussion of blind testing, the effects of bias and other objective subjects relating to sound science were causing trouble in the other forums where people don't want their subjective preferences to be challenged and for advertisers who have a vested interest; so they created this forum for those of us who want to discuss sound fidelity objectively. If you have questions that relate to things that have been tested and are established science, this is the place.
 
Feb 24, 2023 at 3:05 PM Post #42 of 109
I would challenge any Stereophile or The Absolute Sound reviewer to conduct blind listening tests with two high-end systems that are identical except for something like a power cable and be able to differentiate them with a greater than 50% success rate.
They did that sort of thing years ago. Back in the 1970’s and for part of the late 1980’s they pretty much agreed that blind/double blind listening tests were the “gold standard”. They ran some themselves, published the results all was great until they challenged Carver to a double blind test and couldn’t tell a $400 amp from a $6,000 or $10,000 one. They took a huge reputation hit on that one and as the digital age progressed they failed more and more and published fewer. By the late ‘80’s they had to stop completely or they would have no business or jobs left. The only alternative was to do an about face and start highlighting or simply inventing falsehoods for why DBT not only wasn’t actually the gold standard but was unusable. James Randi not only made the challenge you suggest (with an audio cable, not a power cable) but offered $1m to anyone who could tell the difference. It stood for about 15 years and no one took him up on it. Why did no one even try? Obviously they knew what would happen.
Funny thing is, they don't conduct tests like this. I wonder why.
Now you know.
Everything related to the signal path does matter.
It matters to the extent that if it’s not there then nothing works. No fuse or power cable and it won’t work. For many/most of the parts of the signal chain it doesn’t matter what different part you use as long as it’s the correct specification.
The issue is, does it matter enough to be audible, and if so, enough to be worth what it costs.
Not really. The issue is: Does it make a realistic difference (many/most don’t). Only if the answer is “yes” to this question does the issue become, is it enough to be audible and then, if that’s also a “yes”, is it worth it to an individual?
In other words, they don't make any effort to account for confirmation bias.
Or expectation bias or any other bias unfortunately.
Every audiophile I know listens very hard to a new piece of gear, trying at some level not to like it so that they don't have to spend however many $1000 it costs.
And that’s why they’ll often hear a difference when there isn’t one. It’s a “new piece of gear”, so that’s a big bias to start with AND they “listen very hard”. If they listen differently to usual they’ll most likely perceive differently to usual. So it’s hardly surprising if they hear a difference, in fact it would be unusual if they didn’t.
This is NOT confirmation bias; this is simply accepting the joy I feel when I'm listening as real.
How do you know it’s not confirmation bias, what did you do to eliminate that possibility? Maybe you’re right, maybe it’s not confirmation bias, perhaps it’s expectation bias or another bias or just because you listened “very hard”, what did you do to eliminate these possibilities? For that sort of money, I personally would have first done a DBT and if I could tell a difference, I’d have tested to find out what that difference is, what it’s doing to lower the fidelity so much I can actually hear it!

G
 
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Feb 24, 2023 at 5:11 PM Post #43 of 109
I would argue that if it doesn't matter enough to be audible to a given person, it doesn't (or shouldn't) matter to that person. The problem with magazines like Stereophile is that they claim every little thing makes an audible difference, without backing up that claim with any sort of blind A/B testing. In other words, they don't make any effort to account for confirmation bias.
I agree completely.

For many/most of the parts of the signal chain it doesn’t matter what different part you use as long as it’s the correct specification.
Wrong. Anything in the signal path matters. It's simple physics.
Things that can affect the signal path also matter, like cables that pick up RF or interconnects that cause ground loops.
 
Feb 24, 2023 at 5:27 PM Post #44 of 109
Wrong. Anything in the signal path matters. It's simple physics.
Things that can affect the signal path also matter, like cables that pick up RF or interconnects that cause ground loops.
It doesn’t matter if it’s something you can’t hear. With my setup at home, I run into some issues with interference due to me being near a large radio tower: amps can pick up the station and gives a noticeable hum or the station broadcast. The solution has been RF filters and ground loop isolators: not expensive cables. And actual examples of tests that involved people’s hearing was listed.
 
Feb 24, 2023 at 5:35 PM Post #45 of 109

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