[bhd812]

I updated this post on Dec 22nd with more in depth terms of what is up...its in a big long quote at the end of this post!!!!!!

Updated on Dec 24, my brother picked up his hornet..its in bold/underlined at the end of this thread..see what he thought of the two compared


Where to start this?..

Well as some of you may know on the 10th of December I picked up two Hornet amps from Ray Samuel's, one for Myself and one for My brother. I called my brother (he lives pretty far from me) that day and found out he won't be able to pick up his amp until Christmas eve. So I seen a opportunity to test out first hand about Rays theory on the Hornet NEEDING 300 hours to reach its full potential. So what I did was plugged my Hornet's adapter in and hooked it up to my old Sony d4 pcdp and then put on my Sennheiser HD 600's in there box and played Stereophile burn in track* on repeat from Sunday night until this mourning ( I will be giving it more burn-in time also). I also will note that I had the Hornet on the High gain setting with the volume maxed at full (the d4's output is lower then some).

Fast forward to this mourning I was comparing my RSA Raptor, RSA HR-2, RSA SR-71, against the burned in RSA Hornet (my Hornet) with My Grado hf-1's with bowl pads. nothing new here and to be honest it was pretty boring. I was listening to my Hornet when I was thinking how close the Hornet I was listening to was to the sr-71. Then I remembered I had My brothers Hornet sitting in its box in my sock draw since December 10th and figured why not and do a quick comparison of the two.

Now before I go on about what happened next I want to state a few belief's and thoughts I had or have. first off I do believe in a theory of Burn in (also called Break in) on Speakers. I firmly believe that the suspension on a driver must be moved in and out to make the suspension material (usually a form of a rubber) easier to move without as much strain on the amp. I am pretty sure i heard a difference between cables but I have never tested it out as I did this mourning with the two Hornet's. I Believe in Ray and I would consider him a pretty good friend of mine but to me the "300 hour burn in a must" Idea was pretty far fetched. Don't get me wrong its not that I didn't believe him but come on, solid state amp needs 300 hours? is their honestly going to be that much of a difference?...In the back of my mind I would say no way possible....or is it?

Back to this mourning With the two Hornet's head to head, for the first time on tv (or head-fi or in my room or even anyone besides Ray's room).

Here's the setting: Meridian G08 Cd player hooked up with MIT terminator 3 interconnects followed by a un-panache Radio Shack RCA to mini adapter. the Two Hornets consist of Mine which has about 200 hours on it and My brothers never even powered up Hornet. the headphones at this time were Grado hf-1's (I will update this later with other headphones of course) My brothers Hornet doesn't even have a battery in it so I used My adapter to power it.

Since I am more adept with My Hornet she goes in first, the cd used is Bella Sonus "Rincon De Espana"**, Well the song played threw as I heard a million times before, nothing really surprising here to be truthful. Sounds like every other time I heard the song on the sr-71 really but I am not comparing the sr-71 here.
On to My brothers hornet......

Wait...


Noway...

Something is wrong here stop the song! I check My brother's hornets gain setting's, yelp its on low which is the same as mine is. I check the volume setting on his to mine, again they are both at the same level. Ok maybe its because Mine was running on battery power and his was on the adapter, so let me listen to mine on the adapter again and his on the adapter after...that has to be it.

So I listen to the same song with My Hornet only this time is was plugged in the adapter, But My Hornet is still the same as it was before, just to make sure i listen to the entire song. Song ends lets plug My brothers hornet back in and try this again.

Song starts And In utter disbelief I listen to the entire song threw My brothers completely un burned in amp. Ok something has to be wrong, I am calling up Ray now maybe he messed up somewhere....

RAY: Good Mourning Ray Samuel's Audio.

Billy: Hey Ray It's Billy, I have a few questions about the two hornets I picked up from you. first are they the same? second are they the same? and third are they the same?

RAY: Yes they are, Yes they are, and yes they are.

So what is the difference between the two I here?

high's
the un-burned in hornet has almost a piercing high end, think the silver Grado sr-325 on steroid..horse steroid..Rhino Steroid, Maybe King Kong steroid..you get the idea. The highs are almost un bearable compared to the burned in Hornet. on the Burned in Hornet there flat, like other RSA amps.

Mid's
these are totally off on the Un burned in hornet! guitars and vocal's seem they take a back seat to the sonic's usually come off as the background. On the music I played the guitar and the female vocal usually are supposed to be front and center stage, like there the star of the song with all other sounds just are more of effects. well with the un-burned in hornet the guitar and female vocal are the opposite. of course with the burned in Hornet the mid's are like all other RSA amps.

Bass
All High's, No low's this amp must be made by Bose!!..(hehe I like that rime).
The bass is a complete mess in the un-burned in hornet, so bad My ears are still pissed at me for making them listen to this song like this a few times. think of riding in a car with 20 12' subs in the trunk and nothing else audio wise done to the car...its almost just distortion at this point.

sound stage!
un burned in is completely forward! everything comes from the front on the un Burned in Hornet. the burned in Hornet is wide and quiet, its really starting to get close to the sr-71 in terms of sound...it also has a tiny bit of Raptor in it coming out also..but I will wait until later to talk more about that.


Like I said before I am not to much of a believer of this "Hornet needs 300 hours" but regardless if I don't want to believe it or do, I know what I heard! switching back and forth from both amps was like comparing to products made by two different companies for two different uses. I will listen more to the two later on with different Grados or the senn's. let me know if you want me to compare the two using some headphones or sources (I.E. Ipod)..

Until then have a nice listening, I know I am going to..
Billy D



*Stereophile test cd 3, track 20 "Stereophile's Special Burn-In Noise 2:15"
** Bella Sonus "Enamoured" track 6 "Rincon De Espana" Nurodisc #26874




Quote:

Alright lets do a three song comparo between the un burned amp (my brothers) and the burned in amp (mine)!!!! this time here is my setup... the Meridian G08 fed threw the MIT Terminator 3 and ended at the un panache Radio shack mini/RCA adapter, which would be the same as before. but this time I am using the Sennheiser hd-650's with a cardas cable and the mini to 1/4 jack is the stock Cardas the 650's come with. before anyone says anything about the cardas cable and the 650's please remember these two are not the subject of My comparo! first song... John Lee Hooker's "Early one mourning"*** in the un burned amp (brothers) John's Voice is on the attack mode, hes not telling you in a relaxed blues panache fashion he is up in your face demanding you listen to him. As in the burned in Hornet (mine) John is just sitting back with his guitar telling you this story of how his ex just got up and walked off on him one day many moons ago. Its almost like your both on the porch just chatting drinking the country time lemonade and this man is telling his tale with his guitar. One the un burned amp John's voice is aggressive where as the burned in amp he seems easy going and gentle in his way of communication. Another huge difference between the two amps is where and how Deacon Jones organ is played or heard. In the un burned in amp (brothers) the organ parts are immediately come off as distorted, like as the recording mics are rite up way to close to the pipes of the instrument itself. in the burned in amp (mine) at about 2:10 in the song Deacon does his solo on the organ and the instrument itself doesn't move in a imaging physical point, where as in the un burned in hornet (brothers) the organ at 2;10 is moved up and everything else in the song (including John himself) is placed out in the back. On mine the Organ and the rest of the instruments don't move at all before or after Deacons solo, after all John is telling me the enjoyable old mans tale where not moving nowhere, where calm,where cool, lol. Song Two or deuce...lol... Andrea Bocelli's "Melodramma" * * * * After listening to this song million times in different setup's and a few times on both Hornets in this post here is what's more apparent to me. In the un burned in Hornet (brothers) there is almost no reverberation in Andrea's voice, where is in the burned in hornet you can easily pick out Andrea's vocal cords moving almost as though your listening to the movement of a guitar string swaying back and forth. In the un burned in Hornet (brothers, man I am getting sick of typing this over and over) the deep bass comes in and pounds you, almost as your sitting on a 15inch subwoofer. as in the burned in hornet (mine) its settled but its Pitch definition and over all articulation is done better in terms of you can pick out the settle little difference of the bass notes move up to a higher or lower note. in the un burned in hornet (my brothers) the bass is dull, roarish boom that out weigh's everything else and tries to fight with Andrea's spotlight in the song. Just because the burned in hornet (mine) is more settled by no means tells you the bass is thin, or over dampened. Instead the deep bass comes off as clean and precise and very tight in terms of the overall musicality. In terms of sound stage The burned in Hornet (mine) is more image specificity as in the instruments are precise in there placement, almost as though you can pinpoint each separate instrument and focus in on its own echo or the travel of the notes through the air of the recording space (esp with Andreas voice). song three.. Duke Ellington's "Happy go lucky local" ***** Anyone who has Heard this Track before in even a mediocre setup Knows why Duke named the Record "Piano in the background". the piano starts off the song "Happy go lucky local" distant from the recording mic, you realize the piano is truly in the background when the trumpets come in later threw the far left and right channels much closer to you! On the un burned in hornet (brothers) the Piano starts off rite up on the mic, you know rite off that on the un burned in Hornet this song is going to be a downward spiral in terms of perspective and tonal balance!! On the burned in hornet (mine) the Piano starts off distant just as Duke intended to be and recorded it. The stand up bass in the burned in Hornet (mine..jeezz) is perfectly kept in coherence and overall musicality of the entire song and threw the entire song. On the un burned in hornet (brothers) the stand up Bass booms or blossoms out of nowhere, not only from the sync of the rest of the song but its very own placement. ***John Lee Hooker Jealous track 3 "Early one mourning" Virgin #41763 * * * * Andrea Bocelli Ceili Di Toscana Track one "Melodramma" Philips #93412 ***** Duke Ellington piano in the background Track one "Happy go lucky local" Columbia #87107

My Brother picked up HIs Hornet today (almost kind of a sad moment, you know letting the forward sounding little guy go..lol)

He compared mine to his off his new cans (my old hd600's I am lending him with the 650 stock cable), he said basically this but don't quote me...

"his sounds more forward in your face, the treble was increased also."

"mine has more reverbation and a deeper hall effect, a lot of sounds coming from the back of your head."

Now My brother was using a grado RA-1 amp with Sony v-600's out from his laptop. so You can guess he is not a crazy headfi style dude...he likes playing his headphones to sickening levels and see's quality not as much as in sound but in how long they lasted him (he always brags about his Sony lasting 10 years or something)..

Here is a complete non audio dude telling me exactly what I wrote in this thread. so that tells you there's not only a difference but its enough for someone easily to detect!.


He asked me if Mine and his were the same after he heard the two also, I had to tell him yes just mine has been played a lot more and his will sound like that eventually.


I honestly am Glad My brother got this amp, Like I am proud of the guy or something...not sure but I did congratulate him on becoming a member of the mafia..lol (oh come on its a joke).


Of course this thread is nowhere near its end! I must wait until my brother puts on equal amount of hours and then listen and compare the two amps together again....until then this was so much fun! it was a proof post not only to you at headfi but to myself, I honestly couldn't believe what I was hearing the first few days but I settled on putting hours on must work..or do they? we shall find out when we continue after My brothers amp is just as played or burned as mine....


Thank you Headfi
Billy D

 

[boodi]

thanks for the report , it nicely adds up to other threads regarding the breaking time needed for the Hornet to set close to his standards
..I would be very very interested in a comparison among the Ray Samuels products you own once your burning Hornet has completely finished his 300+ hr ( let's say 400 to be bit more sure ) burning time
if and only when you have time

 

[tim_the_gamer]

Interesting findings. I know you didn't intend to hold onto your brother's amp for so long, but I just wanted to point out that it would have been more conclusive establishing that both amps sounded the same when you first got them and then only burned in one to hear the actual difference of burn-in.

 

[bhd812]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tim_the_gamer Interesting findings. I know you didn't intend to hold onto your brother's amp for so long, but I just wanted to point out that it would have been more conclusive establishing that both amps sounded the same when you first got them and then only burned in one to hear the actual difference of burn-in.

You know I regret not doing this, in fact so much so that I want to later burn in my brothers and then pick up another rsa hornet to do it again..but That is crazy talk and I feel that I will arrive at the same place I am at now.

 

[Raymate]

I don’t have this great amp but I am a believer I use lots of HiFi gear and you can tell the difference after burn it. With my main HiFi gear my amp and CD-player (full size) are never turned off they just stay on with the displays off.

When I go away or do turn them off if I don’t plan on listening for extended periods of time when I switch them back on they sound off and harsh but after a few hours or the next day sweet sound is back.

Burn in and keeping them warm is a real affect. As is the effect of sound is better in the middle of the night when less power is being consumed by people on the grid.

I now use my GoVibe at home and I don’t turn it off just replace the battery every day or so and it sounds better for it.

R

 

[909]

Since it appears the 300 hour Hornet burn-in makes such a substantial difference in sound quality, why wouldn't Ray just burn-in each Hornet before shipment? It would take about 12 continuous days on each Hornet, possibly increase the price, definitely increase the wait, and obviously isn't the norm; yet it would provide each customer with a Hornet at (or at least very close to) its best. If not done on each unit, it could be provided just as an option as Catty Link provides a 120 hour Q&A before shipping the E5.

The RS Audio website indicates something along the lines, try our products for seven days with no obligation, yet the Hornet appears to require 12 continuous days of burning to reach its potential. I assume Ray does a 100 hour burn-in, but any Hornet purchased would still require about eight more continuous days.

I’ve had my eye on the Hornet since I first heard about it and really like Ray’s products and his 7 day trial (and I realize he doesn’t have to offer it), but it seems to defeat the trial’s purpose and intent if the amp doesn’t sound its best until after the trial has expired. Wouldn't it be ideal to receive a Hornet at or near its best?

 

[PFKMan23]

While I think this thread may be useful to a certain extent to Hornet owners/prospective buyers, I think it also needs to be said that if you don't like the Hornet's presentation outright you probably won't like it in the long run. Yes burn in helps to a degree and yeah I admit that the soundstage does expand to a certain degree, but I don't think that it changes to the point that if you're a person who mainly listens to say, classical or another music type were seperation and other elements of the soundstage play a key role, then the Hornet isn't for you. Atleast that's how I see it.

In my opinion, the default upfront presentation does not play well for people who lsiten to calssical and other largely sound stage dependent music types, which take place in large venues. Burn in plays a role yes, but if you don't like it, go with your gut and return it. Only your own ears can tell you what you like, and burn in isn't going to have that opnion do a 180. My Hornet for my larger scale pieces like Handel's Hallelujah Chorus is a fine example of this. Ther is also no seperation between the choir and the orchestra. And that is simply unacceptable for that peice.

oh and for those that are unaware, the return period for the Hornet is 30 days I believe. I just wish this was made known to me before hand, as the soundstage of the hornet is simply not up to snuff of what I'd come to expect from my music.

 

[solvexyz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 909 The RS Audio website indicates something along the lines, try our products for seven days with no obligation, yet the Hornet appears to require 12 continuous days of burning to reach its potential. I assume Ray does a 100 hour burn-in, but any Hornet purchased would still require about eight more continuous days.

Ray has stated many times that this 7 days policy DOES NOT apply to the Hornet.

 

[PFKMan23]

Quote:

Originally Posted by solvexyz Ray has stated many times that this 7 days policy DOES NOT apply to the Hornet.

That he has, but for his sake, he needs to update his website and clarify that. Alot of people are getting mixed up and that shouldn't be the case. Ther should be full disclosure beforehand, and that situation is very misleading.

 

[bhd812]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 909 Since it appears the 300 hour Hornet burn-in makes such a substantial difference in sound quality, why wouldn't Ray just burn-in each Hornet before shipment? It would take about 12 continuous days on each Hornet, possibly increase the price, definitely increase the wait, and obviously isn't the norm; yet it would provide each customer with a Hornet at (or at least very close to) its best. If not done on each unit, it could be provided just as an option as Catty Link provides a 120 hour Q&A before shipping the E5. The RS Audio website indicates something along the lines, try our products for seven days with no obligation, yet the Hornet appears to require 12 continuous days of burning to reach its potential. I assume Ray does a 100 hour burn-in, but any Hornet purchased would still require about eight more continuous days. I’ve had my eye on the Hornet since I first heard about it and really like Ray’s products and his 7 day trial (and I realize he doesn’t have to offer it), but it seems to defeat the trial’s purpose and intent if the amp doesn’t sound its best until after the trial has expired. Wouldn't it be ideal to receive a Hornet at or near its best?

witht he exception of the sr-71 and the Hornet every product from RSA is burned in for atleast 100hours then Ray will always listen to the product before sending it out.
why doesnt he with the two portables?
it would take way tomuch time and space to these products, way more sr-71/hornet selling plus the customers are more in-patient then a hr-2 or stealth customer...atleast what I would think, i dont speak for Ray on this.


Knowing how much Ray will bend over for his customers It wouldnt surpise me that he does turn around and change up things..

 

[909]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFKMan23 I admit that the soundstage does expand to a certain degree, but I don't think that it changes to the point that if you're a person who mainly listens to say, classical or another music type were seperation and other elements of the soundstage play a key role, then the Hornet isn't for you. Atleast that's how I see it. In my opinion, the default upfront presentation does not play well for people who lsiten to calssical and other largely sound stage dependent music types. the return period for the Hornet is 30 days I believe. I just wish this was made known to me before hand, as the soundstage of the hornet is simply not up to snuff of what I'd come to expect from my music.

In your opinion, is the Hornet better at rock than classical? How about jazz? I’ve read that Ray has made some modifications to the Hornet’s sound signature that might be more to your liking. I am not sure exact what the differences are between the two versions, maybe Ray or someone will chime in.

I am now pretty confused about the RS Audio return policy with respect to the Hornet. Where did you hear about it being 30 days?

Quote:

Originally Posted by solvexyz Ray has stated many times that this 7 days policy DOES NOT apply to the Hornet.

Thanks for the clarification and the heads-up.

Do you remember a few weeks ago that a Head-Fier shortly after receiving the Hornet put it up for sale here on Head-Fi? Within a relatively short time thereafter, Ray requested that the purchaser return the Hornet for a full refund less shipping. I know Ray is very good about honoring his policy, but it doesn’t seem appropriate and somewhat misleading that he would request/offer a Hornet return for a full refund, posted for all to see here on Head-Fi, only to one Head-Fier and then in the rare event another Head-Fier wanted to return a Hornet within the 7 days or whatever it is or isn’t denied it because the return policy doesn’t apply to the Hornet.

 

[Jahn]

Billy, you are one of the few folks out there who has gotten to do a comparo like this. It is true that it would have been nice to test both together before one was burned in, but even so I think your impressions are legit, and the gear you used was resolving enough to be fair (even with rat shack cabling hehe). Thanks for stepping up and letting folks know that they have to be patient with their new gear sometimes - not just for amps, but for headphones, etc.

 

[Borat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFKMan23 the soundstage of the hornet is simply not up to snuff of what I'd come to expect from my music.

It seems needless to say this now, but you probably would have been better suited for the SR-71 for your classical listening.

From auditioning almost his entire line of amps, I would say The Raptor and The Hornet stand on one end with their more immediate presentation, while The Stealth, HR-2, and SR-71 stand on the other end with their more laidback approach.

 

[Ray Samuels]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 909 In your opinion, is the Hornet better at rock than classical? How about jazz? I’ve read that Ray has made some modifications to the Hornet’s sound signature that might be more to your liking. I am not sure exact what the differences are between the two versions, maybe Ray or someone will chime in. I am now pretty confused about the RS Audio return policy with respect to the Hornet. Where did you hear about it being 30 days? Thanks for the clarification and the heads-up. Do you remember a few weeks ago that a Head-Fier shortly after receiving the Hornet put it up for sale here on Head-Fi? Within a relatively short time thereafter, Ray requested that the purchaser return the Hornet for a full refund less shipping. I know Ray is very good about honoring his policy, but it doesn’t seem appropriate and somewhat misleading that he would request/offer a Hornet return for a full refund, posted for all to see here on Head-Fi, only to one Head-Fier and then in the rare event another Head-Fier wanted to return a Hornet within the 7 days or whatever it is or isn’t denied it because the return policy doesn’t apply to the Hornet.

Mr. 909....
I am sorry to say that you have been misinformed regarding the return of any of my products unless they have gone beyond the 30 days return policy of any known manufacturer. I have said this before in another thread & I say it again that I have never ever denied the return of any of my product including the Hornet to any of my customers, in fact I do not even ask the customer why are you returning the Hornet, as I allready know that he or she have made up their mind to return the product so why even ask. Some one complained in the other thread that Ray did not even ask why I am returning the Hornet.
I don't understand why would some one complain about that, infact he should be very happy because he got his money within minutes with no question asked.
If it makes it any official, to you and others who visit my web site which is not really updated, as I am trying my best to do that, I say this one more time, the 7 days triel period DOES NOT uply on the Hornet at all, so please stop mentioning that again, it is 30 days like every other manufacturer.
The portable amps that I sell, being SR-71 or the Hornet, I DO NOT burn-them in, It is not a joke to put 100 hours of burn-in on ONE audio components alone, emagine burning in 100 Hornets, ,where do I come with that many AC power disdtribution? where would I come with that many interconnectors? or audio signals? How fast I have to do that to keep every one happy who are waiting on impatiantly to get their Hornet?
You should have seen us trying to get out of the door 100 Hornets in just 2 days you might have realized what goes on to keep other happy.
I have the same 4-5 headfiers complaining about the Hornet over & over in every thread that mentions Hornet's name. All what I can say that I treated them with utmost respect & did not question their motives for the return of their amp, but gladly refunded their money.
Ray Samuels

 

[PFKMan23]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 909 In your opinion, is the Hornet better at rock than classical? How about jazz? I’ve read that Ray has made some modifications to the Hornet’s sound signature that might be more to your liking. I am not sure exact what the differences are between the two versions, maybe Ray or someone will chime in. I am now pretty confused about the RS Audio return policy with respect to the Hornet. Where did you hear about it being 30 days?

I know that it is 30 days because I tried to return my HOrnet and had emailed RAy if I could do so. He said no and explained that the return policy was for 30 days, of which I have overshot by quitea bit. Unfortunately I didn't know that, but I am telling you guys, as he has never publically said the return period, nor is it mentined on the RSA website.

Ray scrapped the idea of changing the sound signature, so that's out.

As far as classical or Rock for the Hornet, I'd definitely say rock. With classical, I feel the sense of soundstage and and seperation is lost and that the msuic just seems in your face. There is a deficiency in the amount of space and depth that the Hornet has. I mean it's there, but not to the extent that i feel it should be. For rock it's pretty good, but unfortunately, rock makes up less than 10% of what I listen to.