High-output DAP?
Feb 4, 2008 at 2:51 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 19

selfdivider

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I have Sennheiser PXC450, which are rated at 150 ohms. I was wondering if there are any players out there that have high-enough outputs to drive these w/o amps? I've been told that Cowon D2 might, but I don't really care for its sound...

If I can't find any players, I will end up selling these cans. If any of you are interested, let me know. They are still unopened, NIB.
 
Feb 4, 2008 at 7:01 PM Post #4 of 19
Cowon D2. Any problems you have with its sound can be resolved through use of its EQ settings.
 
Feb 4, 2008 at 8:49 PM Post #5 of 19
I'm sure there are some alternatives but I cant think of any. Power output is usually not published by Dap manufactures, if they don't have anting to brag about then they wont be telling you about it, ya know? Im also a proponent of Cowon becasue they support Flac and Ogg files which is rare.
 
Feb 5, 2008 at 12:08 AM Post #8 of 19
i don't know what you mean by drive. if you want volume, just about any player will get you volume. as for driving, high imp headphones are much easier for portables to drive as they don't overload the headphone amplifier as do low imp headphones.

if you want strength for all frequencies, even cowon do no provide enough power (voltage) for high imp headphones though. you will not get hifi sound out of a small player (to the same rumbling effect) but they all should still sound good. even my hd600 and dt880 sound good from a lowly ipod, but they sound much better from my home system with dedicated heed or meier amplifiers.

the senn will still sound good and should get plenty of bass for you
 
Feb 5, 2008 at 4:09 AM Post #9 of 19
Quote:

Originally Posted by shigzeo /img/forum/go_quote.gif
as for driving, high imp headphones are much easier for portables to drive as they don't overload the headphone amplifier as do low imp headphones.


Thanks, Shigzeo. I'm not really looking toward getting hi-fi quality sound out of my portable gear, as I do serious listening through the Leben CS600 or the Heed... just "good enough" would be grand!

But can you explain to me what you mean by high imp headphones being easier to drive b/c of their not overloading the headphone amplifier as low imp headphones? I was told the opposite: that the low imp headphones are easier to drive!
 
Feb 5, 2008 at 4:22 AM Post #10 of 19
most portables have good performance on headphones that are over 60 ohm - essentially the higher the imp, the closer to just a line out the phones become so you can hear the player the way it actually sounds. the lower imp headphones are like pushing a bicycle up hill - it is lighter than a motorbike but your legs are doing the work, not a motor. getting a motorbike going requires petrol but it does the work.

this is a bad analogy but... suffice to say that larger headphones will not make the headphone out of a portable reveal weaknesses in and of itself. merely, they will not be as full as possible nor as layered. they require power but they will still sound good.

my d2 could not drive my denon c700 nor my atrio very well - both sounded very congested with my trance music - very congested in the bass. however, my dt880 sounded quite nice though not as deep as they are with... the heed which i owned until a year ago or so. cheers
 
Feb 5, 2008 at 6:25 AM Post #12 of 19
not really. even cowon who specify amp at 16 ohm cannot drive ohm phones well. take a look at this measurement. basically, all players except for sony 600 and 800 series and sansa clip and express and the famous ipod shuffle 1g have not the ability to drive low imp headphones. they will lose bass.

however, most of these players that do drive them well hiss with low imp phones. it is all about trade offs. i use an ipod touch which drives low imp headphones the same way as everyone else (read not very well) and it still sounds good.

portable players are an interesting paradox. even the cowon d2 with its 6mw per channel extra than ipod does not supply enough voltage to properly power phones that are voltage hungry like the k701 but cowon advertise its amp as powerful. at the same time, it cannot properly power low imp phones to give them powerful, non-flabby bass.

portables, if you consider them just portable and not hi-fi, will get you very far. if you use an amp, it basically takes away the load from the headphone out and if the portable has good headphone out or a good dac, will power even lower imp headphones quite well.

advantage ipod is that it has line out and the difference with amp and without is for bass registers, quite dramatic. my touch does well without, but with, it quite an amazing sounding player. just find a player that you like and can use well with software and hardware functions - that will serve you better than looking for the best player. they all have disfunction in their system somewhere and each will frustrate you on at least one point - sq should be among those problems. remember, just like anything portable, you are buying size and convenience but pay in other factors.

if you are into heavy video editing, no laptop will give you the power of a mac pro but they will do the job... eventually. just like that.
 
Feb 5, 2008 at 2:12 PM Post #13 of 19
Quote:

Originally Posted by shigzeo /img/forum/go_quote.gif
all players except for sony 600 and 800 series and sansa clip and express and the famous ipod shuffle 1g have not the ability to drive low imp headphones.


Thanks. That's really interesting.

I was actually interested in replacing my old iPod with a Sony 800 series, & from what I gather from what you said, Sony might be better in driving headphones? Would they do an adequate job of driving Sennheiser PXC450, which is a 150 ohm & not a low imp? Again, I'm not looking for hi-fi sound through my portable... Thanks.
 
Feb 5, 2008 at 2:14 PM Post #14 of 19
There are two components to this discussion:

1. burden (headphone impedance)
2. source output power
3. headphone sensitivity

sensitivity: you can have low impedance with low sensitivity and high impedance with high sensitivity. Because you can hear your headphones loud does not mean that your source is driving it properly. The source might be "saturating" and you won't know it except for the nasty sound quality.

How much current can the source provide? If you had an infinite source, then the current output would not be an issue, but it is.

The facts:

low impedance headphone: source cannot establish the current to drive the load (headphone), so you get whimpy bass.

high impedance headphone: source cannot establish the voltage to drive headphone, so you get a very dull, tinny sound.

Get yourself a headphone amp if you cannot drive your headphones properly. You are trying to cut corners and that sucks.
 
Feb 5, 2008 at 2:27 PM Post #15 of 19
you still can get very good sound out of high imp low sensitivity headphones from a portable. they retain their nature, but their nature is held back.

my dt880 sound phenomenal out of my headphone home source but still sound good straight from an ipod. it is not ideal, but when i am around the house cooking or straightening up, it is great. the truth is mentioned above: you will get more enjoyment from any headphone with an amp, but you can get along well without one.

the sony machine has both low voltage output as well as very very deliate amp: 5mw + 5mw. it sounds great for low imp headphones as it has dual caps out (push and pull) but for large headphones, it will sound tinny and hollow. i have had sony in the past as well and no matter how good the low imp sound, the big ones are not given enough action to sound their best.

my friends ipod made my beyers sound very good but it has greater power comeing from its amp. if i add my supermicro for portable use to any portable, my larger headphones will sound much better - but even a dedicated portable amp will only make it sound better, not best.

all that above is disclaimer: in case anyone wants to refute what i am saying - good headphones will sound good form just about any source that is not a telephone. your senns will still probably sound great from the sony, but they would benefit from a more powerful portable amp like that from cowon, creative or apple. you can also invest in a portable amp if you want, but really - it is not necessary unless you really want to make sure you are covering requirements as much as possible - you will enjoy those phones no matter what you do.
 

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