high end universal(dvd) player redbook performance?

[music_man]

i agreed with you a while ago already. i was high(not literally) when i said the philips, even modded could beat $2,000 players. ok? modded it could beat most $500 players i think. forget that for now.

we are not comparing apples and oranges. because i want to know at what point i can get a player with his transport only, and the pickup goes right out the back to the coaxial out. obviously his player IS that expensive because of the quality of it's analog out's. i am figuring you can get that transport and use a dac. same trick as with the philips, but now instead of going after $500 players i am going after the big guns. i know it will not be as good as his unit with the dac already inside it. i just want that transport. it appears that the integras have it. now, how important is the power supply when you are only concerned about the operation of the transport? i'd think the integras 4 ounce transformer could work the transport fine and has to suck for providing power to the internal dac's. again, that is why i am using an outboard dac.
so can i aproach this level of redbook with a $1,000 dac and $???? player?
doing things this way is very popular because as it may not be the best, it comes close for a lot less money. this is somewhat similar to my philips thread, but instead of talking about how good the cheapest player is i am asking how much is the best transport at a minimum(solely as a transport with a dac). obviously it is going to be a whole lot more than $50. people with $5,000+ units with good internal dac's, don't feel threatened. it has good internal dac's, it's still better than what i am going after. hopefully(for the rest of us) not by too much though. some people are into diminishing returns and if they have that type of money i think it is great. i would too if i could. all my good stuff is/was used.

but, if it is let's say $1,500(a total guess) for the player with the best transport, $1,000 for a dac and $300 for an IC and it comes close to the $7,500 players than i would be happy enough.

music_man

 

[music_man]

per my transformer post. i see these things all have vastly different transformers. how important is the power supply when you are only using it with a dac? for instance the 3910's transformer is tiny and the 5910 is huge.
they are both EI of course. how important is this this when you do not care about the internal dac performance? remember, it is still powering the dac anyways. are these little switchers like on the 3910 overwhelmed to power the servo's when they also have to power the dac?

again, i am just looking for a top notch transport for use with a dac at the minimum possible price but still at the best available sq.
i figure i need to look at all these factors.

music_man

 

[Spareribs]

If you have further questions about universal players, you can ask Welly Wu or maybe do a search of Welly's comments on universal players and the Denon products. Although I find sometimes searching can be a bit confusing since the data base is huge but you can attempt. I believe Welly did some extensive research on universal players. I think from what I've read, the Denon 5910 and 3910 basically sound the same and the difference in sonics is very marginal. But I could be wrong.....then again, maybe I'm right!

 

[music_man]

i see welly's posts. that does not really answer my question. i want to know at what price point can i get the absolute best machine to use solely with a dac. i do not care about it's analog outs. what ever is nescessary internally to provide the absolute best platform for output to a dac is what i am looking for. not a specific model, but rather at what price point do serious diminishing returns kick in when used solely as a redbook transport(with a dac, analog will not be used).

now they are saying the 2910 is nearly identical to the 3910 but the 3910's transport is better. well what has the best transport? and is that even what i need for a dac? for instance would a $10,000 player sound better through a dac than the 3910? or is it marginal?

i asume there is more to a good transport than just the transport/pickup, like for instance the power supply. i want the best(within reason) but do not care about the internal dac at all. it is possible that a machine like this comes with a great dac inside whether i like it or not i guess.

the bel canto seems to have the same transport as the integra's do. i don't really even know if i am asking the right qeustion. maybe something else is more importnat when using a dac?

music_man

 

[Garbz]

I can explain the redbook player theory to a degree. It has to do with how many units are clocked. Mind you this does not apply to all units, some of them do some crazy things to ensure proper jitter free digital output.

Redbook cdplayers will be clocked from a crystal speced for audio frequencies. that's 24.5somethingMhz. Most universal players run from a crystal speced for video at 27Mhz. The audio clock is derrived from this and since there are no clean multiples of one to get the other it can often explain for universal player's inferiority to redbook players in the purely digital domain.

However like I said this does not apply to all players. But what exactly are you after. The CDplayer is not necessarily the weakest link in this point. Assuming you have a reasonably normal DAC it still needs to recover the clock somehow from S/PDIF. What I am getting at here is that you do not need a cdplayer that provides <10ps jitter if your DAC can only recover some 150ps from the stream. Mind you again I do not know many of th eunits you are talking about, just some food for thought.

 

[Sleestack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by music_man sleestack, i see you do not skimp on audio equipment either. that is exactly what i wanted to hear. if it hangs out with esoteric it is as good as i need quite frankly. so we can than assume i am right. acting as a transport only, these universal machines are as good as any dedicated high end redbook only machine. now in only two boxes(player and redbook dac) you have it all.

I was talking strictly analog 2 channel output. Even then, I am only saying that the PL-1A excels as a Redbook source and can be considered to be just as good as the Esoteric, b/c it is a matter of opinion. It may be psychoacoustics, but the Esoteric sounds slightly different. It does use a PCM->DSD conversion. I do think that the PL-1A can be considered a no-compromise Redbook, SACD and DVD-A source for both analog and digital output, but it does come at a mo-compromise price. I use the AES out for digital and the XLRs for analog.

 

[music_man]

well i am having a hard time deciding where i want to blow a ton of money.

i really like the linn unidisk 1.1. it is if nothing else,cool. it is tiny and light.
i'd use it with a dac. it is also the price of a esoteric cdp, so this might be a serious waste depending what you guys think it's redbook performance is with a dac.

then i heard this cary(i think 306) it has tubes and upsamples to 384k(selectable even). it sounds good by itself and may very well be a better solution than even having a dac. this surprises me, because i like, not love the g08 as with many people. i could go listen to the esoteric tomorrow. but for 10 grand or so i want it to play everything. this is where i am torn, because every salesperson informs me that it does play everything, but maybe only one thing really well, and rarely that is redbook.

they tell me the esoteric cdp will nail their universal for redbook(which they call just a teac, egads).

now here is where it gets really tricky for me:
tonite i was offered a box that was mistakingly opened(still in plastic never used) of a denon 5910ci for $1,650! maybe i should just forget about the best and just take the deal?

i do agree the dac aproach is not going to be the highest end. i am not looking for the absolute highest.

the dennon uses the same pioneer mechanism as the bel canto. of course bel canto modded it better than denon did.

should i get that denon and call it a day, or go spend serious money on a universal like the linn?

thanks,
music_man

 

[Sleestack]

Grab that 5910ci. That's what I have. It has superior video and can definitley serve as an audiophile platform. I'm having mine modded to add AES digital ouput and to further enhance the 5.1 anlaog ouput. I'm actually going to to get rid of the PL1-A because I feel that the 5910ci can cover all the bases for me. However, I don't need it for 2 channel analog (ecxcept via AES out).

I am listening to the P-03/D-03 combo through its XLR analog outs right now. It is quite amazing in combo with the SDS-XLR.

 

[music_man]

well the denon is certainly the deal for me right now. but it is not what i really want if it will not be a top shelf redbook transport with a dac.

why aren't you using the 5910 for 2 channel and still using the esoteric? i think i know why, but go ahead and tell me please. are you talking about nitpicking, or are the universals and highend redbook players on different planets in sq?

also, the denon does not use the pioneer chassis. didn't you find the bel-canto(pioneer based) to be superior to the 5910?

i see the integra may be even nicer than the bel canto and is only around $3,500(also a pioneer). but if these cannot hold a candle to a dedicated redbook player why would i want it for redbook only? hmm, good question music_man!

maybe the linn is different altogether. stereophile gave it class 'a' and says it is amongst the best redbook players they have ever heard. i gotta think hard befroe i spend $1,650, and real hard before i spend $10,995. i would not return this stuff so i gotta love it. i also find it very cool that such a high end component is so tiny.

music_man

 

[music_man]

i really want the linn. my brother told me tonite that it is way overpriced for what it is. is he right? stereophile says it has class 'a' redbook, but i do not always trust them. the denon is a sweet deal but it is too darn big. i just got a theta data III and i will soon need a bigger house if i keep getting things this size

. is size and weight a direct indicator of quality? i say no.

music_man