high end universal(dvd) player redbook performance?

[music_man]

hi,

i keep hearing if you are going to play cd's, do yourself a favor and get a cd player. personally i am just not finding that to be true. at the minimum i am speaking of the denon 5910,marantz 9600,sony 9100es. at the high end the linn unidisk 1.1. or krell dvd standard. at the absurd end the goldman eidos. how can anyone possibly say that anyone of those, at their given price points are bested for redbook by dedicated cd players of the same price (when a dac is used)? if you can hear a (favorable)difference between those at their given price points(with a dac) and a dedicated cd player for redbook, g*d bless you.

i must point out that i am speaking of using the dvd players with an external dac of at a minimum, benchmark dac1 quality. that is because all the high end cd unit's are seperate dac's and transports. so that makes it a fair comparisen as i see it.

the dvd players internal (redbook) dac's are usually lacking but they do tend to have much more robust transports and pickups than cd players at the high end.
the good dvd-universal units should take the signal straight from the pickup to the coaxial output completely bypassing the analog stage. the above mentioned ones do. so as long as the transport is stable and acurate and has jitter below the human hearing threshhold i feel these easily best cd players in their respective price categories.

actually, if you are using a dac there shouldn't be an audible difference between the 5910(or other $3,500 univrsals) and the unidisk(or other $10,000 universals) i would think. or a dedicated cd transport in either price range. those that can hear a favorable difference between high end universals and high end cd players when used with a dac might be having physcological issues.

many people think they can just get a $150 player and a dac will fix that. that i don't agree with. however with a dac i do not see a transport above $3,500 being nescessary or making any favorable audible difference. i now feel that currently the $3,500+ is going to be better spent on the universal at this point.

i have repeatedly read here, and am told by salesfolk, get the cd player for redbook. i personally am a pioneer(not the brand, the lifestyle) and see universal transports with a good dac for redbook as the future. this is actually important, as redbook does not have much of a future ahead of it. sure, we all own 20,000 cd's but when a new format takes over (it quickly is) what will you do with your then aging cd player?

i feel the older cd players easily best todays offerings. that shows that they are concentrating on universals.

why do you think you can no longer buy a good pcdp? because dap's are the future and the industry has given up on pcdp's. likewise, cd players seem to be quickly becoming white elephants. also true of vcr's. indeed there are still plenty of so called high end redbook transports. i now find them all sorely lacking in comparisen to their universal cousins. as usual i am going against the popular grain here.

this of course does not apply to vinyl. there will always be a place for that in the foreseeable future since it was superior to digital to begin with(another topic, another day perhaps).

ok so bottom line, direct comparisen:
is a arcam cd36 for instance a better redbook player than a denon 5910(with dac)?
what about a krell sacd standard vs. the linn unidisk 1.1(with dac)?

that is just in general you can make any comparisen you want. i am of the current belief that at each price point(above $3,500usd) the universal(with a dac) may not win outright but it is most certainly the better value. i do not see any difference other than miniscule for redbook, so long as the universal is used with a dac. now look at all the other stuff you can do with the universal to boot. i don't think i will buy another(new) cd player at this point.


lot's of post's about "cheap dvd player as source?", well here it is, "expensive dvd player as source?"

how does everyone else feel about this subject?

music_man

 

[lini]

One point for cd players (at least those that still use a cd transport) is that they are usually dumb enough in order not to be fooled by several cd copy protection systems.

Greetings from Hannover!

Manfred / lini

 

[jumping jupiters]

i just went through this exercise this year...in the middle bracket of players...in the end i couldn't find a universal player that compared to the musical fidelity a5 player in its price point ($2500). it bested the denon's, marantz's and arcam (not totally universal, but close) that i put is up against. so i bought this unit and a cheaper $500 universal...so i technically was in the $3000 bracket. Also, i was looking to get the most out of CD since SACD, DVD-A and DVD-V are way down on the priority list.

 

[music_man]

that is a good point! and you are correct! it doesn't really matter though if i want to be dishonest there are plenty of ways around that if you are handy with electronics(before mods get mad, i am not advocating that).

i think i am deciding between the mccormack\conrad johnson udp-1 deluxe(stereophile 'a' best silver disc player they have ever heard?) or the much more expensive unidisk 1.1. like i said i doubt a dedicated cd player can beat these when used with a dac for redbook. the goldmund eidos reference is a universal player of all things. unless it is just an over priced gimmick(which from goldmund i doubt) for $70,000+(you read that right) what dedicated cd player is better? the point i am addressing was that maybe 2 years ago dedicated redbook players bested universal 'silver disc' players all the way around. i don't see that as the case anymore. the top universals are spot on for redbook(with a dac) nowdays. they just have better pickups and transports. period. plus you get a dvd player thrown in.

i just don;t know which one to choose.
their is linn,mccormack,ayre,cary,myryad etc. then there is are modded units from denon,pioneer,sony,marantz.....

i need help chooisng, but first i want to be assured i am correct that these things are superior redbook players when teamed up with a top dac.

unless the difference between these and something like a meridian 808/g08 is night and day i'm not buying a cd transport again. i do really like the g08 but i am not able to a/b it with a top universal.

anyone have opinions on this subject?

music_man

 

[Spareribs]

Wow, Lot's of food for thought. I plan on getting the Denon 3910 universal player in about a week. I will use it for SACD and DVD-A and of course I do expect the redbook to be excellent and the redbook has recieved a good review. I also plan on pairing it with a good amp like the Singlepower MPX3 in the future. Will a DAC like the DAC1 or Lavry really be worth adding? Will the redbook really make a big enough improvement and be worth the $900 extra for a good DAC in your opinion?
Sorry if this is a dumb question. I'm new to this.

 

[music_man]

what does the a5 play besides cd's? i am very personally upset with mf and will not buy their product again anyhow. that is personal though, ymmv.
i do not want tubes in my digital either. i want the pure digital nasty, give it to me! arcam is another company i am not happy with. you know about their sacd fiasco, right? no, it sure ain't universal!

plus if you see my other post i actually want a switchmode(universal,lol) "smart" uk/us psu in it. i am using a dac remember. switchmode is vastly superior to drive a pickup and transport which is all i am using in this machine(for redbook). forget it's dac. this seems optimum to me, i get top notch redbook(with the dac) and can play any other "silver" disc. going over $10,000 seems stupid to me really and $3,500-$5,500 seems a lot more reasonable indeed. there are so many in that range i don't even know where to begin. i'd hope that at those prices there is no discernable sonic difference between the pickups and transports(remember these send the pickups output directly to the coax or aes supposedly).

music_man

 

[music_man]

well once again i am going to say at that price you are doing the right thing.
i'll take that over nad,cambridge,music hall,musical fidelity all day long!
of course my opinion about that is not too popular here and i don't understand why actually. the denon is a solid performer from a brand you can trust. that's right, you can trust. plus you can mod it in the future.

if you want ultimate performance you need a dac. that is where all universals at all price ranges can be improved for redbook. like i said redbook seems to be on it's way out. at least according to what the manufacturers are showing us. the redbook dac will be a weak link in any universal imho.

stepping up over $3,500 will bring the transport into it's own. the 3910 is very good but still not the absolute best. above $3,500 it is just a matter of which i/you like the features looks etc. i'd have to think. if anyone here feels there is a difference between multi-thousand dollar universals(when used with a dac for redbook) please speak up.

also, at what price point do the diminishing returns kick in on these units(with a dac of course)? forget video quality. for that a $500 sony is good enough for me. i really do like to watch a movie on this too but i am not too picky about video.

now i hope i do not have this all wrong and someone pops in here to tell us all that a $600 chinese dedicated cd player smokes these $3,500+ universals for redbook performance(with a dac). even at that end i have seen(not here go figure) that people prefer the cambridge 540d to the 540c likewise with nad.

music_man

 

[Spareribs]

Maybe what I'll do is see if I can buy a good DAC in the $900 range and see if the improvement on Redbook is worthy.
And if not, I'll then return it assuming that the store has a trial/return policy.

 

[Sleestack]

I have the Denon 5910ci and the Bel Canto PL-1A. I also had a fully modified 3910 w/ tube ouput.

I really feel the Bel Canto (via analog out) is as good in Redbook as any high end Redbook player. I have had the G08, auditioned the 808 and have the Esoteric D-03/P-03.

The Denon 5910 falls a little shy in redbook via analog, but as transport works just fine. Furthermore, it has is as good in 5.1 via analog ouputs as anything I've heard.

 

[Spareribs]

Interesting. I'll have to investigate the Bel Canto in the future.

 

[music_man]

sleestack, i see you do not skimp on audio equipment either.
that is exactly what i wanted to hear. if it hangs out with esoteric it is as good as i need quite frankly. so we can than assume i am right.
acting as a transport only, these universal machines are as good as any dedicated high end redbook only machine. now in only two boxes(player and redbook dac) you have it all.

all i need to know now(so i do not overspend) is with primarily redbook in mind and with a top dac, at what point do the diminishing returns kick in on these universal players?

i know the 5910 is much better at video than the 3910. if it is only being used as a pickup/transport to a dac is there a sonic difference between the two? at what price range are you assured the best transport/pickup since that is all i am looking for. when these companies say "direct conection from the pickup to the coxial output completely bypassing the entire analog stage" is that completely true? if it is than once you have gotten to the level where increasing price does not buy a better pickup/transport they should only sound like your dac and nothing else theorhetically. i just need to know what is the least expensive universal that achieves this.

i'll probably get the mccormack. i'd still like to know which machine is the minimum standard for redbook reference with a dac. new, unmodded.

thanks,
music_man

 

[skyline889]

Quote:

Originally Posted by music_man sleestack, i see you do not skimp on audio equipment either. that is exactly what i wanted to hear. if it hangs out with esoteric it is as good as i need quite frankly. so we can than assume i am right. acting as a transport only, these universal machines are as good as any dedicated high end redbook only machine. now in only two boxes(player and redbook dac) you have it all.

Sleestack's comment didn't prove any of your comments, the Bel Canto PL-1A is a $7500 universal player, not a $50 bargain basement one. He's also using the analog outs, not as a transport.

 

[music_man]

i just realised something pretty intresting! that bel canto pl-1a uses the same transport, video processor and dacs as every machine made by integra research corp. is that thing based on an onkyo design? thats not an insult it is a big compliment! if that is the case, the integra is one of the players that has a direct conection from the pickup to the coaxial output bypassing all internal circuits. does that mean that the $350 player when used with a dac is as good as it can get for redbook? i kind of doubt this, but if so wow! i know that thing is a serious bargain. heck it has bnc,rs232,hdmi for that price. it does not have aes though but i won't miss that(but i should).

fyi, integra also makes $3,000 machines. i do not know if they are better solely as a redbook transport though(and would like to know). i do know for a fact however that these are sold by the installer market and commonly placed into $500,000 hometheaters were the owners do not complain!

edit: it is a highly modified pioneer. the cheaper integra is also a somewhat modified pioneer(probably a better value than an elite). the $3,000 integra "looks" more serious than the bel canto inside. of course looks mean nothing, sound does. i am now wondering if you can get that basic platform for $350, are using a dac and it has a direct conection from the pickup to the coaxial output..... am i think right or am i smoking something? skyline, please don't take this as a further opportunity to insult me,ok?


music_man

 

[music_man]

skyline, would you quit it already!

we are not talking about $50 players in this thread. sheesh.

and i >AM< talking about using a dac.

what i am asking is how much must be spent to get the best universal player for redbook to be used as a dac and not more? again, i am not talking about $50 players, so leave me alone already.

the philips was a nice project for a few days and is worth the money. it is no where near the best, i realise that. stop trying to put words in my mouth skyline!

music_man

 

[skyline889]

Quote:

Originally Posted by music_man skyline, would you quit it already! we are not talking about $50 players in this thread. sheesh. and i >AM< talking about using a dac. what i am asking is how much must be spent to get the best universal player for redbook to be used as a dac and not more? again, i am not talking about $50 players, so leave me alone already. the philips was a nice project for a few days and is worth the money. it is no where near the best, i realise that. stop trying to put words in my mouth skyline! music_man

Well for quite a while you were still saying that your player could take on anything under $2000. But anyways, I still don't see how sleestack's comment supports your idea, yeah it must be an awesome player but for $7500, I should hope it is. He's also using the analog outputs, while you're thinking of digital outputs. You're comparing apples and oranges here.