[Douglas256]

Last night, I downloaded RMAA and proceeded to test every DAC, ADC and amp I own; in the end, I found the balanced (XLR) outputs of my Benchmark DAC 1 to be my hands down winner of my sources. Since my HeadRoom Max only takes unbalanced (RCA) inputs, I decided I'd try the analog pre-amp side of my Grace Lunatec V3 as a headphone amp. After making special cables to connect my 1/4" headphone jack to two XLR outputs, I was ready to go.

Hooking everything up, I carefully made sure the Benchmark DAC 1 was set on variable output volume. As I slowly turning up the volume, the V3 sounded amazing but hot (too loud). Popping open the DAC1 I set the internal jumpers to -30 dB on each of the XLR outputs. Since the V3 was still a bit hot, I set the internal jumpers on the V3 to -20 dB as well. Now that the volume was just right with the calibrated output from the DAC 1, it was time to listen to some music.

In short, it sounds amazing! I have never heard such clarity and power from a pair of headphones. The highs are razor sharp without being fatiguing and the bass is just as (if not more) powerful and controlled than the Max's. In the last hour, I've heard things in my recordings that I have never heard before. The RMAA test results show that the V3 is more accurate in all respects to the Max (although, it of course lacks HeadRoom's processing).

Has anyone else tried using high-end microphone-preamps as headphone amplifiers? If so, what were your experiences? There are more companies making high-end mic-preamps than there will ever be making headphone amps . . . perhaps Head-Fi's next favorite headphone amp won't be a headphone amp at all.

 

[gerG]

Wow, just imagine if Grace made a headphone amp!

gerG

 

[Douglas256]

While I realize Grace also makes a headphone amp, my point was more along the line of

(i) there are some amazing tube and solid state mic-preamps out there that might bring you one step closer to your audio nirvana,

(ii) it gives people interested in XLR-type headphone cables a choice in headphone amplifiers without having to build their own or buy a Blockhead.

For instance, a Neve tube mic-preamp (a legend in the recording industry) would make a great tube version of the Blockhead. There are balanced mic-preamps with two channels ranging from $40 to more than $10,000. Most the great ones can be had for around a grand a channel. There is also a huge used/vintage market to sample as well.

Just my thoughts . . . call me crazy or give it a try yourself. Besides, you can head down to your local Guitar Center . . . buy a high-end mic-preamp try it out and return it tomorrow if you don't like it. While there are probably dozens of professional recording stores in your area, I doubt there are dozens of stores carrying high-end headphone amplifiers in your area.

 

[Ari]

Hey Douglas !!

I'm glad I clicked your post. It is very interesting.

I'm preparing my self to make hi resolution recordings ( 24 bit - 96 and 128 kHz) on classic music and Gregorian Choirs. At the moment, I'm deciding about DA AD C's and mic pre-amps.

I'm looking for some "neve wanabe" Millennia HV 3D mic pre. Oh, it's not a wanabe...it is a Neve like...for justice...

For me, you make a lot of sense. Millennia has a VERY famous mic pre, the HV-3B, their work horse 2 channel and they must sound incredibly on headpnones...I will let you know soon.

For Millennia click here.

Here you have some links for mic-pre-amps and mics. There are some very "hi-end" ones in this list.

Can you tell me more about your RMAA tester? What sound card are you using?

Best

Ari

 

[Douglas256]

As for my RMAA testing, I used the digital out on my Lunatec V3 for most my testing -- of all my sound cards, it was the most accurate (my DAC1 to V3 beat the Lynx Two tested on the RMAA site on everything but frequency responce, where it lost by a hair). Of course, I had to make a cable to be able to plug all my unbalanced sources into the balanced V3. On another note, I was surprised how much noise, harmonic distortion and intermodulation distortion the HeadRoom Max adds (never gets over -85 dB, but still surprising).

As for hi-resolution recording, I love my Lunatec V3. If you are doing location recording, I would strongly recommend it. Besides having built in M-S recording (great for classical and jazz), the thing is built like a tank -- I can't imagine anything hurting it, including driving a semi over it! Not only that, but it sounds amazing as well.

What are you planning on recording to? It is amazing how much space recording at 24/192 (or even 24/96) eats up. If you are doing location recording (as, I assume you are), are you going to try and use a laptop, a desktop or a stand-alone hard drive recorder? I went the laptop route (since everything could then be run off batteries), but this limits me to 24/96 -- at least until Grace releases the firewire upgrade for the V3.

 

[Orpheus]

okay.... i don't get it.

what's the difference with using the outputs of the mic preamp vs other line-level preamps? i don't think the output stages are any different between mic preamps and line preamps. i mean, i ain't a tech.... but i think that it's mostly to do with the input. the mic preamp will really crank up that signal... which is why it sounded much too loud to you.

i'm sure that lunatec has tons of headroom... afterall it's almost $1500. so you probably ain't getting too much distortion pumping it with your line-level output. but you really shouldn't do it that way.

...............but dang i want your preamp. heh he. i need it!--just bought me some new mics that are just begging for a nice pre!

 

[Orpheus]

ari, check out:

www.homerecording.com/bbs

they got some recommendations on serious preamps there. if you want a true Neve copy though, i don't think the Millenia is for you.... just look through a couple issues of Mix... there are Neve copies coming out like every month!... but i don't ever remember the Millenia being advertised as a Neve copy.

anyway, the Millenia's expensive, but there are other much more highly-regarded pre's in that price range. do some more research before you buy it--you won't regret it.

for instace the Great River preamp........ i think that one actually is a Neve copy... and it's VERY highly regarded. doesn't look pretty though.

though none of those are portable versions. the Lunatec is about the only one i know of that's truly built for remote recording.

 

[Ari]

Hey Douglas !

I'll be recording to a Alessis Masterlink 9600 ( first step, 96 kHz). If every thing goes well, next step will be some like Radar or Genex multi-tracks recorders.

______________________________________

Hey Orpheus !!! How are you man?

Thanks for your tips on mic-pres. Great River preamps are very good but for the application I'm on ( location, class and choir ) the Millennia is the one. This is, for an example, the pre used on the Stereophile hi-res recordings (all of then). And also used by Telarc !!! ( They have more than 50 channels !!)

See their client list . Awesome huh ?? It's a shame I will be included on this list...

Best

Ari

 

[Douglas256]

Orpheus,

You're probably right. Frankly, I've never really figured out what the differences between headphone amps and other line-level preamps are. Admittedly, it isn't the right way to go about things . . . but, I've never had a use for the line-out's of the Lunatec before and I couldn't resist playing. I think there are still a couple people around here that have said heck with amps and listen to the line-out's of their sources (or preamps, can't really recall which).

Ari,

In my opinion, I don't think there is any real benefit to recording higher than 96 kHz; besides, there are a lot of people that swear by the Masterlink. While I don't know what your mic situation is, I'd upgrade my mics before I make the jump from 96 kHz to 192 kHz. Then again, I'm still trying to save up enough money for some Schoeps -- oh how they call to me : (.

Also, I agree with Orpheus about looking around at other mic-preamps besides the Millennia. Frankly, I've never heard of them before. There are quite a few sites that have recordings with dozens of different preamps so you can compare how they sound without actually buying one to find out. While I could probably dig up the link, you can probably find it faster looking on homerecording's bbs or Gearslutz than I can.

 

[Douglas256]

After controlled testing, I decided there isn't any audible difference between the Max (with filter off and processing off) and the Lunatec V3. After adjusting the volume of the Max and the V3 to within 0.1 dB, I hooked up identical headphone extension cords to them and sat switching between the female ends of the two extension cords from across the room.

It seems as if the differences were a combination of not having the volumes set exactly the same and placebo; I knew which tested more accurate, and hence heard the V3 as being more accurate even though the difference are below the threshold of my hearing (< 0.1 dB between 20 Hz - 20 kHz and a noise floor of -85 dB instead of -110 dB).

Frankly, I sometimes wonder how much of the difference I hear between different amps is from placebo or volume difference

. Oh well, back to the Max and listening with crossfeed.

 

[Ari]

Douglas.

Yes, I really don't know if I will go for other recorders in the future. Anyway, the reason would be more tracks and not only 192 kHz.

About mics I will start with Earthworks QTC1, incredible 20 Hz to 20 KHz +- 0.5 db and 4Hz to 40KHz +- 1 db. I ordered then last Friday, expecting then for Monday. This was Mr. Jules, Gearslutz founder, recommendation and the fact that the Brasilian dealer had then in stock.

Next pair will be SCHOEPS CMC64Ug as $oon as I can, even before the second recorder, if any.

About Gearslutz, yes Dog, when I'm not here an HF, I'm there "listening"...

I would like very much to hear from you about my mic decisions. Other thing to remember is that here in Brasil, some things are difficult do get, like the Schoeps. There is no rep here, I will have to buy it when I go to USA.

Very best

Ari

 

[rickcr42]

mic preap gain X100 vs headphone amp gain X5 or X10

then there are the frequency response , output impedance and current output issues

since a "pre" amp is meant to "preceed" an amp the output stage COULDS be adequate but will most often be designed to drive an impedance in the K ohm range and not the Ohm range we see with headphones


and unless designed to drive long cable runs will mostly not have the current requirements of headphone drive


frequency response : there are some highly regarded microphone preamps that have in no way a dead flat response-nor are they meant to be

you pick the preamp to suit the application and in concert with the chosen mic you obtain the "house sound' you are looking for

two different animals

rickmonster

 

[Orpheus]

ari,

well either way, i'm sure your millenia would be great--i just thought you wanted a Neve clone, and to my knowledge, the millenia is not a clone. and you know how all pro ads go--they always say something like, "Sounds so smooth, just like a Neve" kind of a deal... doesn't mean it was meant to sound like one. heh he. anyway...

as for mics, you REALLY need to go to that website i told you. trust me! the difference between advice on that site and stuff you read elsewhere is that they actually use all the mics!--it's real world experience. the earthworks is a great mic.... but you might be able to get a mic that does a better job for your application for less money! (if you already bought the mic, you can sell it to me after you read the website!

)

heck, i got me a Octava 012? something like that.... from GC the other day based on advice from that site. then i was talking to a dude there that told me his friends record choir with those mics, and swear by them. now, they look like crap--they're really badly constructed....... but man, everyone says they sound so sweet.

anyway, they probably are too low-fi for your budget.... but they got a lot of advice on the website.

 

[Mastergill]

Hey Orpheus, you should check Gearslutz, a zillion time better than homerecording. Ari knows that

 

[Orpheus]

hey, thanks!--i added it to my favorites.

...however, they do have less posts. looks a little more oriented towards the high-end. gotta check it out....

their for-sale forum is great though!--dang i have a lot to sell...