[Mauricio]

Quote:

@Mauricio:
I would have to respectfully disagree with your take on expensive gear. To most owners of such, it's not about elitism nor bragging rights; rather, about seeking the last level of detail and perfection, and affording to do something about it - namely, purchasing. After all, economy principles would dictate we all drove cheap cars, yet there's no shortage of Mercedes vehicles on roads.
In my case I noticed a very distinct improvement between W4S DAC-2 and another one costing about four times as much. I noticed said difference while I wasn't even paying much attention - that DAC was not something I was considering at that time.
And about being able to have a meaningful conversation, a bout of perceived condescension never helps promote such.

Don't misunderstand or shift the goal posts.   I don't object to expensive gear or you spending your $$ anyway you want.   I question, on well-established economic principle, "high-end" DACs for the reason outlined above, that is, that is not where your $$ investment is likely to reap handsome rewards after a certain price point, but certainly much  earlier than $1,500.
 
Who is more likely getting a "high-end" sound with "detail"?  The guy with the $1,500 DAC and the $1,500 passive speaker & outboard amp combo.  Or the gal with the $500 DAC and the $2,500 active speaker?  I'll let you surmise.  Ultimately it's about systems rather than components, and audiophilia is not immune to fundamental concepts of economics or to what should rather be simple common sense.
 

 

[DaveBSC]

Quote:

Elitism and fetishism notwithstanding, my position and the economics behind it still hold whether I own an Audiotrak Cube, a Cambridge Audio DacMagic Plus or an Antelope Zodiac+.  There may be minute differences between the Antelope and my DacMagic Plus, but most people here, including myself, don't have the amplification/speakers to resolve those differences.  It's rather like the ostentatious elites of Third-World countries that buy Ferrari and Lamborghini, but their country doesn't have any decent roads to even get to 100 km/hour.  Good luck to you.
 

That's certainly possible, although I'm not sure I would say "most people" at least not in the high-end forum. Further, the fact that "most people" don't have very resolving speakers is largely irrelevant, and your comparison to expensive cars in countries with poor infrastructures really doesn't apply. I once had someone ask me about putting a sound system in a room that was a literal echo chamber - hardwood floor and a cathedral ceiling, and almost no furniture. I said that unless you're willing to stuff this place full of corner, tube, and ceiling traps, you're going to end up with a mess, and that was the end of that conversation. Spending thousands on speakers and amps for a room like that without treating it is dumb, and is akin to buying a Ferrari to drive on a dirt road. Spending more than $500 on a DAC is not dumb, and does not put you into an "elite clique". 
 
For my office rig, I believe I've allocated my expenditures quite wisely, thank you. I have a lot of experience working with the room and learning its acoustic properties. I use mid price monitors because the room just isn't capable of really high-end sound, at least not in a way that would make it still practical as an office. The high-end equipment all goes to the headphones. When you take acoustics completely out of the equation, you're only limited by the resolving power of the headphone and amplifier, and the O2/KGSSHV combo is VERY resolving, and makes spending more than $500 on a  DAC sensible.
 
You could drive an O2 with an SRM-252S and $100 DAC and feel smug that you've outsmarted the "elites", but in that case all you've done is cheat yourself and waste your investment in the O2.

 

[skamp]

Spending more than $500 on a DAC is not dumb, and does not put you into an "elite clique".

Take the test!

My take: spending less than 100 bucks on a DAC with, say, a Wolfson part, is good for most people, and will give them a warm fuzzy feeling (I enjoy mine!). Spending more than that is probably dumb for most people. Also, having the money to buy expensive gear doesn't mean you have the ears to enjoy it. I still have no idea what the self-proclaimed "golden ears" are hearing. I won't go so far as to say that there are no differences to be heard with expensive DACs, but I'm betting very, very few people can hear them, if any.

 

[DaveBSC]

Quote:

My take: spending less than 100 bucks on a DAC with, say, a Wolfson part, is good for most people, and will give them a warm fuzzy feeling (I enjoy mine!). Spending more than that is probably dumb for most people. Also, having the money to buy expensive gear doesn't mean you have the ears to enjoy it. I still have no idea what the self-proclaimed "golden ears" are hearing. I won't go so far as to say that there are no differences to be heard with expensive DACs, but I'm betting very, very few people can hear them, if any.

 
Everything is relative. If you have $150 headphones or speakers, use a soundcard and a little Cmoy amp, or just listen to your iPod. Keep in mind that this is the high end forum, and many of us are not interested in "good enough". I'm not Michael Fremer or Robert Harley, I don't know how they hear things as opposed to how I hear things. What I have learned over the years though is that people who typically think $100 level products are perfectly adequate are people who ultimately don't have that much interest in music. They may listen to a lot of music, but it's almost always in the context of doing something else. The music is just a thing that's there so they aren't bored.
 
When you're truly passionate about music, when you sit and listen for the sake of listening, as opposed to playing some music while riding the subway, you start to pick up little cues here and there. Really great recordings are all about the little details, not just the trees rather than the forest, but all of the individual leaves on those trees. I don't think you need super human ears for that at all. You just need to develop listening skills.
 

 

[Mauricio]

Quote:

 
. What I have learned over the years though is that people who typically think $100 level products are perfectly adequate are people who ultimately don't have that much interest in music. ...
 
 You just need to develop listening skills.
 

Really?  Is that so?
 
But in any case, that is neither here nor there for the issue of marginal returns.

 

[DaveBSC]

Quote:

Really?  Is that so?
 
But in any case, that is neither here nor there for the issue of marginal returns.

Yep. Your returns will also depend on your listening skills. I'll grant that the difference between a $2,000 DAC and a $5,000 DAC are not going to be earth shattering, night/day. If you go in expecting that, you're going to be disappointed. The better your listening skills though, the more you are likely to appreciate the $5,000 DAC. Whether its worth it depends on the individual. If you compare a $100 DAC to a $5,000 one though, on a system comparable to the level of the $5,000 DAC and you can't hear the difference, well then this hobby probably isn't for you.

 

[skamp]

people who typically think $100 level products are perfectly adequate are people who ultimately don't have that much interest in music […] When you're truly passionate about music, when you sit and listen for the sake of listening […] you start to pick up little cues here and there. Really great recordings are all about the little details

That's one (unsurprising) point of view.

I listen to music, not recordings. Well, I do enjoy better mastering, but I don't constantly try to over-analyze every little thing. And when I tried to ABX a cheapo Realtek (which shifted my attention away from the music, to those little details), I failed. To be fair, I know what to listen for when it comes to ABXing lossy codecs, but when it comes to DACs, I have no idea. Ignorance is bliss, I guess.

Another (equally unsurprising, I guess) point of view, is that so-called audiophiles don't listen to their music, but to their gear, and that they're really anal about it. They're not music lovers, not more so than anyone sitting in front of their computer. And more often than not, they fail to detect any differences in double-blind tests, which suggests that most of their enjoyment is purely psychological.

If anyone could reliably tell the difference between my FiiO E7 and, say, a Benchmark DAC1 (or better), I would believe that there is indeed a difference to be heard (while I'm skeptical about it, I'm open to that possibility, if only because measurements show differences), but I would still think the differences are likely way too subtle to justify the investment. That last part is purely subjective though, I'll give you that.

Btw, there are artists who actually create music and are not audiophiles. Loving music doesn't mean spending ungodly amounts of money on gear.

 

[skamp]

If you compare a $100 DAC to a $5,000 one though, on a system comparable to the level of the $5,000 DAC and you can't hear the difference, well then this hobby probably isn't for you.

If the hobby you're talking about is spending as much money as possible, then sure.

 

[DaveBSC]

 
Quote:

If anyone could reliably tell the difference between my FiiO E7 and, say, a Benchmark DAC1 (or better), I would believe that there is indeed a difference to be heard (while I'm skeptical about it, I'm open to that possibility, if only because measurements show differences), but I would still think the differences are likely way too subtle to justify the investment.

Have you actually tried a Benchmark? The D2000 is not my favorite headphone, and the Benchmark is far from my favorite DAC, but the D2000 should be more than enough to show up the difference. I'm always amused by the "there can't possibly be" comments from the folks with zero experience. Somebody telling you that there's a difference is no different than Fremer telling you to run out and buy a $20K Esoteric transport. You either hear it or you don't.

 

[skamp]

I'm always amused by the "there can't possibly be" comments from the folks with zero experience

Don't put words in my mouth, I didn't say that. I said I was skeptical, big difference:

while I'm skeptical about it, I'm open to that possibility, if only because measurements show differences

I do have some experience with ABXing lossy codecs at bitrates approaching or achieving transparency, so I know just how subtle differences can be. That's where my skepticism stems from. Just how subtle a difference can one detect?

Do you have experience with ABXing anything at all? I'm talking real double blind, not "A/B" comparisons (I don't know why people keep calling them that).

 

[DaveBSC]

Quote:

Do you have experience with ABXing anything at all? I'm talking real double blind, not "A/B" comparisons (I don't know why people keep calling them that).

 
Yep. The first real pair of speaker cables I bought, I had my GF help me perform a single blind ABX test - AQ Bedrock vs. 12AWG hardware store zip-cord. I was 80% correct, the one I missed was a fairly low-fi recording. The difference was small enough that I couldn't really tell, just had to guess. The rest were quite easy. I've done a few since then, but I mostly don't bother as I've found sighted critical listening tests to be just as effective and I can do that myself.

 

[skamp]

First, your test was single blind, your girlfriend could have consciously or subconsciously tipped you off.

Second, personally, I need more than that (like 99.7% certainty in a proper double blind test). I do care about sound quality (more like transparency), but my placebo is only worth so much.

Anyway, I'm happy with what I have. I might buy an ODA/ODAC when it's available, just because it's designed by a guy I trust more than any company, and because, again, I do enjoy my placebo. But I won't go further than that (Gawd help me).

I believe we have the same hobby, we just go about it differently.

 

[comperic2003]

Quote:

The rest were quite easy. I've done a few since then, but I mostly don't bother as I've found sighted critical listening tests to be just as effective and I can do that myself.

Haha! Crom laughs at your four winds. He laughs from his mountain.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

 
Yep. The first real pair of speaker cables I bought, I had my GF help me perform a single blind ABX test - AQ Bedrock vs. 12AWG hardware store zip-cord. I was 80% correct, the one I missed was a fairly low-fi recording. The difference was small enough that I couldn't really tell, just had to guess. The rest were quite easy. I've done a few since then, but I mostly don't bother as I've found sighted critical listening tests to be just as effective and I can do that myself.

Sorry, but that result is a fail as far as such testing is concerned. If you say you got 80% right and missed one, you only did 5 'X's, which is not enough. So 80% is easily within random. Sighted testing produces different results from other forms, so they cannot be compared. What that difference shows us is that sight and knowledge of what we are listening to affects sound quality.
 
I know my two DACs in sighted testing sound different, one is a low end one inside a headphone amp and the other is a low to mid range stand alone USB DAC. I would love to try a high end one and see if/what difference that made.
 

 

[Maxvla]

That's one (unsurprising) point of view.
I listen to music, not recordings. Well, I do enjoy better mastering, but I don't constantly try to over-analyze every little thing. And when I tried to ABX a cheapo Realtek (which shifted my attention away from the music, to those little details), I failed. To be fair, I know what to listen for when it comes to ABXing lossy codecs, but when it comes to DACs, I have no idea. Ignorance is bliss, I guess.
Another (equally unsurprising, I guess) point of view, is that so-called audiophiles don't listen to their music, but to their gear, and that they're really anal about it. They're not music lovers, not more so than anyone sitting in front of their computer. And more often than not, they fail to detect any differences in double-blind tests, which suggests that most of their enjoyment is purely psychological.
If anyone could reliably tell the difference between my FiiO E7 and, say, a Benchmark DAC1 (or better), I would believe that there is indeed a difference to be heard (while I'm skeptical about it, I'm open to that possibility, if only because measurements show differences), but I would still think the differences are likely way too subtle to justify the investment. That last part is purely subjective though, I'll give you that.
Btw, there are artists who actually create music and are not audiophiles. Loving music doesn't mean spending ungodly amounts of money on gear.

And what, exactly, is wrong with that? I am not a music lover, but I am an audiophile. I enjoy listening to audio of all kinds to hear the sounds, the mixes of sounds, and what the different pieces of gear do with those sounds. I can easily tell the difference between my Bifrost and the DacMagic I replaced, and those are at the same price point.