[upstateguy]

Quote:

Hi USG,

 
1. Without using big audiophile words, it sounded a bit restricted, congested with a narrow soundstage. 
 
2. The loudness issue came about after I did all those blind tests.  I am really interested in it and will perform another blind test against spdif out of my sound card directly into the dac and against dvd player directly into the dac.  I will report as soon as I have some results.  I wonder if I should remove the attenuators before the test??  I would also like to measure it because as a song goes high or low the volume constantly changes - and this is hella hard to gauge.  I'm thinking the right way is to use some pink noise and measure that with a calibrated mic.  I ordered one to run REW for my room, so maybe I can use it to measure the loudness??
 
3. The same.  Before the hiface, I was going spdif coax out of a realtek soundcard into the dac.  I ALWAYS preferred the non - upsampled version, be it dac or the SOX resampler.  Let me add that the sound was pretty darn good straight out the soundcard, I don't think the dac had much to work with in terms of improving it. 

 
Hi xdanny
 
I don't think I understand exactly what your volume issue is?
 
Could you elaborate?
 
The volume difference I heard  between the BCT and the HiFace was not subtle.  Nor was it because the BCT  didn't play loud enough.  The BCT played as loud as any other transport or DAC implementation I have.  The HiFace, on the other hand played louder, as was annotated in the CA review of the Legato.
 
USG

 

[xdanny]

Quote:

 
Hi xdanny
 
I don't think I understand exactly what your volume issue is?
 
Could you elaborate?
 
The volume difference I heard  between the BCT and the HiFace was not subtle.  Nor was it because the BCT  didn't play loud enough.  The BCT played as loud as any other transport or DAC implementation I have.  The HiFace, on the other hand played louder, as was annotated in the CA review of the Legato.
 
USG

What I meant was I never paid any attention to a change in volume when playing through the hiface.  Like I was saying above, I would like to test it against both my sound card and a dvd/cd player in terms of a difference in volume.  I do not have another usb transport, so the sound card and cd player will have to do.

 

[Andrew_WOT]

Hi,
Don't have Trends anymore, sorry. But I can tell that different transports and DACs I've tried all had some variations in output signal strength. I can compare hiface with native Stello USB if that's okay. My suspicion that hiface does not boost signal at the hardware level, it's most likely their proprietary driver that bypasses KMixer.
 
Andrew
 
Quote:

Hi Andrew
 
Let me ask you one question.  Did you notice that your HiFace plays louder than your Trends?
 
USG

 

[Andrew_WOT]

For what it's worth after switching back and forth between Stello native USB and hiface, I tend to believe that volume is the same or even native USB a pinch louder (can be imagination) but definitely not lower than HiFace. May be Stello normalizes output signal.  Its' Windows 7 64 bit, KS output in both cases with digital volume maxed out.
Quote:

Hi,
Don't have Trends anymore, sorry. But I can tell that different transports and DACs I've tried all had some variations in output signal strength. I can compare hiface with native Stello USB if that's okay. My suspicion that hiface does not boost signal at the hardware level, it's most likely their proprietary driver that bypasses KMixer.
 
Andrew
 

 

 

[sleepy dan]

Marco has already said that the small clock has lowery jitter than the larger clock.  If you don't believe this, why would you believe anything else he has to say.  Think about it .....
 
As for doing a recall for no reason ... well the reason is pretty obvious - a hysteria has been kicked up and M2Tech need to protect their reputation, whether the hysteria has any basis or not.
 
Quote:

 
They could have just as easily stated that there was absolutely no sonic difference between the two chips, and showed some graphs and some plots, but the truth is that the small clock doesn't have the same sound signature as the large clock and they knew it.  No one does a recall for no reason.
 

 

[mmerrill99]

This "recall" is another unsupported USG claim. He then goes on to state "no one does a recall for no reason" as an accusation against M2tech. there is some agenda going on here USG, what is it? Even Andrew_Wot wondered about this agenda. Has anybody been in contact with M2tech about this, I have? There is no recall!!!
 
USG has now put up his replaced Hiface for sale - so was all this just to get a new unopened unit he could sell? 
 
Has Mike Garner from TweekGeek.com decided to do this unilaterally?
 
Has anybody else had a unit replaced from anywhere other than TweekGeek?
 
I suggest USG substantiates his statements or stops this vendetta! 

 

[upstateguy]

Quote:

For what it's worth after switching back and forth between Stello native USB and hiface, I tend to believe that volume is the same or even native USB a pinch louder (can be imagination) but definitely not lower than HiFace. May be Stello normalizes output signal.  Its' Windows 7 64 bit, KS output in both cases with digital volume maxed out.

 

Just curious Andrew, was this with upsampling on or off?
 
Are you using the recommended 32 bit setting in foobar?  (this from the driver set up pdf)
 

 
In the Output Device field, select KS:HIFACE Kernel Streaming.
In the Buffer Lenght field, draw the cursor all left to minimize the buffer size.
In the Output data format field, select 32-bit. NOTE: hiFace also works with 16-bit and
24-bit. Choosing 32-bit is the best way to reduce CPU load to a minimum.
Close the window by clicking on Close.
 
 
USG

 

[Andrew_WOT]

Off in both, Stello and Foobar, tried both 16 and 32 bit, Stello USB only works with 16, KS buffer was set to 1080ms in both cases. It's not completely scientific test, just listening test with flipping the input switch on Stello and changing output device in foobar, may be with SPL meter I would find some level difference, but my hearing alone could not detect any significant (noticeable) differences to tell two apart volume vise.
Quote:

Just curious Andrew, was this with upsampling on or off?
 
Are you using the recommended 32 bit setting in foobar?  (this from the driver set up pdf)
 

 
In the Output Device field, select KS:HIFACE Kernel Streaming.
In the Buffer Lenght field, draw the cursor all left to minimize the buffer size.
In the Output data format field, select 32-bit. NOTE: hiFace also works with 16-bit and
24-bit. Choosing 32-bit is the best way to reduce CPU load to a minimum.
Close the window by clicking on Close.
 
 
USG

 

[upstateguy]

Quote:

This "recall" is another unsupported USG claim. He then goes on to state "no one does a recall for no reason" as an accusation against M2tech. there is some agenda gong on here USG, what is it? Even Andrew_Wot wondered about this agenda.
 
USG has now put up his replaced Hiface for sale - so was all this just to get a new unopened unit he could sell? 
 
Has anybody been in contact with M2tech about this, I have?
 
Has Mike Garner from TweekGeek.com decided to do this unilaterally?
 
Has anybody else had a unit replaced from anywhere other than TweekGeek?
 
I suggest that you substantiate your accusations or stop this vendetta! 

 
Despite your efforts to bait me,  I will not engage you in a way that will close this thread.
 
I am a consumer and you are not.  I think your agenda is obvious.
 
USG
 

 

[upstateguy]

Quote:

Off in both, Stello and Foobar, tried both 16 and 32 bit, Stello USB only works with 16, KS buffer was set to 1080ms in both cases. It's not completely scientific test, just listening test with flipping the input switch on Stello and changing output device in foobar, may be with SPL meter I would find some level difference, but my hearing alone could not detect any significant (noticeable) differences to tell two apart volume vise.

 

 
You've got a PM.
 
USG

 

[shamu144]

I am sorry Jkeny, but when I first got in touch with Marco around June to share my surprise and disapointment regarding the poor performance of the small clock, this thread did not even exist. However, Marco already mentionned the possibility TO ME to send the unit back to swap clocks, with the shipping charge beeing the only cost on the customer side. He said they would work out the best solution. I was probably the FIRST ONE to raise this issue to Marco and he did NOT deny anyhting.
 
So to me, it is obvious that M2Tech knew about the issue, but finally later decided not to do anything about it. Hence me starting this thread to make people aware of the issue.
 
Of course I really do appreciate your enthousiasm for the Hiface and all the work you have done around, because it can be a fantastic sounding device, but you have to admit the poor performance of the small clock Hiface serves your interest well making your modded unit sound absolutely stellar in comparison reviews. So I would rather suggest you to stop re-opening the case ad infinitum. Let's customers decide what is best for their interests.

 
Quote:

This "recall" is another unsupported USG claim. He then goes on to state "no one does a recall for no reason" as an accusation against M2tech. there is some agenda gong on here USG, what is it? Even Andrew_Wot wondered about this agenda.
 
USG has now put up his replaced Hiface for sale - so was all this just to get a new unopened unit he could sell? 
 
Has anybody been in contact with M2tech about this, I have?
 
Has Mike Garner from TweekGeek.com decided to do this unilaterally?
 
Has anybody else had a unit replaced from anywhere other than TweekGeek?
 
I suggest that you substantiate your accusations or stop this vendetta! 

 

[mmerrill99]

Shamu,
I think you should look at USG as the person persisting in this futile attempt at trying to convince others of his unfounded statements. Your comments about re-opening the case should be addressed to him as he refuses to accept what numerous people are telling him - no there is no volume difference between the Hiface & other USB transports.
 
So you also agree that there is no "recall" from M2tech & yet you allow USG claim that M2tech are somehow culpable as they did a recall? Your use of terms is revealing "he did not deny anything" - what this means is that he agreed they had changed the clocks & not that the clocks were inferior in any way. A bit more care in your wording please! Why do you think that Marco decided not to do a recall? Was it that he considered that there was nothing to be addressed, perhaps?
 
USG has all these statements that he is trying to pass off as objective facts about the shortcomings of the Hiface & yet he produce nothing to support them & he refuses to listen to all the people who are telling him otherwise. 
 
Yes, let the customers decide by presenting both sides of a case & not a one-sided diatribe of unsupported statements! This attempt at stoking up doubt & dissatisfaction in a product is not an honourable venture & I for one, don't like it.
 
What you say about me (MOT references again, I presume) - yes I should allow this slatting of the stock Hiface to persist because my modified units cure all this so more sales for me! Why do you think I'm doing this as it's patently not in my commercial interests? 

 

[shamu144]

Yes Indeed, I can attest I did not detect any difference in volume playback with both Hifaces compared to my SONY CDP used as transport, or native USB, not even optical out from the Macbook. But maybe the USG's DAC is more sensitive to the higher spec output of the Hiface SPDIF line than the Lavry DA11 is... I really don't know. I also could hear a very noticeable improvement with the Lavry going from native USB to the Hiface, although it is an upsampling DACs. This is why I suggested USG and others to stop mentionning those claims in this thread, as I feel they are not founded and out of place.
 
Back to the clocks, I am just saying that when contacted in June, Marco never denied the differences in sound I was hearing, not even a single time, even though he told me that theorically, the new small clcok was supposed to have better specs. I did not have to argue anything with him, and he stated that they were going to find the best way to handle this possible situation.
 
Com'on, I am no sales guy, but I work frequently close to them, and I perfectly understand why they would not attempt to do anything untill the claims really hit them. No need to remove things when it is quiet. A very straight forward sales learning.
 
But I agree, with shuold leave the issues that USG is mentioning for the time beeing and go back to the main topic, realted to clocks in the Hiface. I would be very interested to know if anyone else did return their units and how it was handled.
 
Quote:

Shamu,
I think you should look at USG as the person persisting in this futile attempt at trying to convince others of his unfounded statements. Your comments about re-opening the case should be addressed to him as he refuses to accept what numerous people are telling him - no there is no volume difference between the Hiface & other USB transports.
 
So you also agree that there is no "recall" from M2tech & yet you allow USG claim that M2tech are somehow culpable as they did a recall? Your use of terms is revealing "he did not deny anything" - what this means is that he agreed they had changed the clocks & not that the clocks were inferior in any way. A bit more care in your wording please! Why do you think that Marco decided not to do a recall? Was it that he considered that there was nothing to be addressed, perhaps?
 
USG has all these statements that he is trying to pass off as objective facts about the shortcomings of the Hiface & yet he produce nothing to support them & he refuses to listen to all the people who are telling him otherwise. 
 
Yes, let the customers decide by presenting both sides of a case & not a one-sided diatribe of unsupported statements! This attempt at stoking up doubt & dissatisfaction in a product is not an honourable venture & I for one, don't like it.
 
What you say about me (MOT references again, I presume) - yes I should allow this slatting of the stock Hiface to persist because my modified units cure all this so more sales for me! Why do you think I'm doing this as it's patently not in my commercial interests? 

 

[mmerrill99]

Quote:

........
But I agree, with shuold leave the issues that USG is mentioning for the time beeing and go back to the main topic, realted to clocks in the Hiface. I would be very interested to know if anyone else did return their units and how it was handled.
 

 

I agree & I too would be very interested in hearing about any other returned units!
 

 

[upstateguy]

I suppose we should clear up some issues.
 
This is the e-mail that was sent to me from Mike at Tweak Geek:
 
“M2Tech is replacing anybody's hiFace for new MEC clocked and firmwared hiFaces. I was told that even if someone thinks they have a hiFace with a small clock that they can exchange it . That makes sense since M2Tech did not want customers opening their hiFaces up.”
 
Now let’s clear up why the HiFace plays louder.  The Legato review I linked to contains this post :  HERE
 
Gang,
 
Simple... The Legato registers as a 16 bit device. Any 24 bit device will be louder as the 16 bit data is shifted left 8 bits when playing 16 bit material through a 24 bit interface.
Thanks
Gordon
__________________
J. Gordon Rankin
~~~~~~~~~~
Wavelength Audio