It's been four months now since I have bought my thorens 160 mk2, and with various upgrades I brought it to a very satisfying level : new thorens carbon fiber mat, J.A. Michell clamp, new stylus (on a shure v15 type 4). All in all, it cost me around 475 CDN (roughly 400 USD nowadays) for all of this, but when I look at some of the prices that are asked for a Td-124 without plint, arm and cartridge, I just wonder if the price difference really implies a stellar jump in performance, or it is just caused by rarity issues.
So my question is : is there a hierarchy in the performance of the various vintage thorens offerings? Or it is just a matter of taste and money?
Originally Posted by papomaster /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's been four months now since I have bought my thorens 160 mk2, and with various upgrades I brought it to a very satisfying level : new thorens carbon fiber mat, J.A. Michell clamp, new stylus (on a shure v15 type 4). All in all, it cost me around 475 CDN (roughly 400 USD nowadays) for all of this, but when I look at some of the prices that are asked for a Td-124 without plint, arm and cartridge, I just wonder if the price difference really implies a stellar jump in performance, or it is just caused by rarity issues.
So my question is : is there a hierarchy in the performance of the various vintage thorens offerings? Or it is just a matter of taste and money?
I've only ever heard a TD150 and a TD160, but from what I've read:
1. TD124
2. TD125
3. TD150/TD160
4. TD165/166
I haven't read much about it except that some people rate the newer TD520 quite highly. There's a beautiful gallery of vintage turntables (including Thorens) at the link below.
Everything I learned was from the above website. I owned a TD160 for a couple of years and just sold it for 2X what I paid. I feel they are a great investment. Even this website does not rate them at performance levels but notes that people over the years liked each one for many reasons. Some of the owners have really gone all out on a restoration! There seems to be alot of ways to get better and better sound out of them. Mine was stock. I have to say it was my first really great turntable. Like alot of stuff, I think Thorens tried to get better sound every year and streamline production. But there are this whole group out there who love the idler wheel models which came out first.
Originally Posted by papomaster /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's been four months now since I have bought my thorens 160 mk2, and with various upgrades I brought it to a very satisfying level : new thorens carbon fiber mat, J.A. Michell clamp, new stylus (on a shure v15 type 4). All in all, it cost me around 475 CDN (roughly 400 USD nowadays) for all of this, but when I look at some of the prices that are asked for a Td-124 without plint, arm and cartridge, I just wonder if the price difference really implies a stellar jump in performance, or it is just caused by rarity issues.
I had a TD160 BCII and upgraded to a TD125II. They are very different and the 125 is a big upgrade in most respects.
A big weakness of the TD160 is the build quality of the plinth which, since it was always a cost conscious design, is usually a fairly lightweight resonant plywood box. A lot of people add internal bracing to make it more rigid or ditch it altogther in favour of a heavier hardwood one. This will be a massive upgrade making the deck more equivalent to a Linn LP12.
More important still is the tonearm. The original stock Thorens tonearms are ok but can be improved upon massively. The problem here is that because the TD160 has a pretty springy nervous suspension it doesn't like anything too heavy. Mine came with an SME 3009 S2 Improved which is a very popular classic but can sound a little dated depending on your musical tastes. I also tried an SME III which was lovley but a bit too smooth and the various Linn budget arms like the LVV and LVX which on balance I found to be the best upgrade. The usual favourite today though is a Rega RB250 which us arguably better than any of the aforementioned, but these don't gel so well with the 160's suspension. You could upgrade the springs to the later stiffer Linn type but this changes the character of the sound and here is the most tricky question.
The TD160 is a finely balanced performer and once you start to mess with the suspension you start to loose something of the characteristic sound. Like the Linn LP12 it has this wonderful ability with rhythms and makes everything you play on it sound fast and engaging rhythmically. But you could also view this as colouration of course. For instance I listen to a lot of electronic music and know what a classic Roland drum machine is meant to sound like. The TD160 always made it sound like a live drummer which is great if you listen to rock for instance as it makes the drumming sound better, but it's not strictly accurate.
So I stopped upgrading the TD-160 and got hold of a TD-125 which is a much heavier construction. The top plate is a quarter inch steel so the suspension is much firmer and less bouncy. Fitting heavier arms like the Linn Ittok or various Regas is therefore not such an issue. I ended up with a fully modded Origin Live Rega RB-250 which sounds far more neutral and accurate accross a wide range of music and although it can sound a bit flat in the mids a judicious choice of cart and phonostage brings it nicely into equilibrium which was what I was looking for.
I don't have a TD-124 but I do have a Lenco L-75 which is an idler. I havn't upgraded this yet to the same degree as my Thorens, but I can see the potential for sure. What the idler drive has is this sense of total solidity. The best way to describe it would be the difference between a normal integrated amp and a full on pre-power set. It's the illusion of creating a real 3D space where a drum sounds like an actual object being hit with force as opposed to an interesting collage of rhythmic tones more evocative of the movement of the player than what he's actually playing, which is what the TD-160 does so well.
So really it comes down to what you like about the sound of your TD-160 and what kind of music you listen to. You can upgrade your TD-160 but be conscious of it's strengths and why it's so special to begin with. If you like the smooth cultured feel of the Thorens but want more neutrality go for the TD-125 or 126. If you want more of the rhythmic fireworks of the 160 but better go for an older Linn LP12. If you want the accuracy of an ilder drive then I'd go for a Lenco as they are much cheaper than a TD124, or for a slightly more lightweight but far less hastle option, a Technics SL1200 with an upgraded tonearm has a lot to offer.
I am quite satisfied with the sound of my TT on my setup right now, as both my speaker and headphone setups have a very fast and luscious sound (SET + open baffle speakers, and hybrid-set + AD2k) and I am listening to every kind of music, and I mean every. My last 5 lps played were : Ted Nugent - Double Live gonzo, Chick Corea - The mad hatter, Grofé - Grand Canyon suite, Lucia-Mclaughlin-Meola - Passion, Grace and Fire, and Joe Satriani - Not of this earth.
However, if I have to evolve my turntable, I will most probably get a newer model, like a Music hall 9.1, a pro-ject model 9 or a clearaudio emotion.
Originally Posted by papomaster /img/forum/go_quote.gif However, if I have to evolve my turntable, I will most probably get a newer model, like a Music hall 9.1, a pro-ject model 9 or a clearaudio emotion.
I would go and listen to the Clearaudio with your own deck at a dealer before making any descisions as you may find, after living with the Thorens that you don't much like the sound of these modern style of non-suspended decks, which can be a little lifeless by comparison.
Bear in mind also that the new TD160HD is twice as expensive as the Clearaudio Emotion / Thorens TD-700, and the classic TD-160 can be elvated to this level with some judicious tweaks. Did you read this?
So buying a whole new deck, I think you'll need to spend more than that to get much of an upgrade. But it will really depend on the spec of your current Thorens.
If you have the stock Thorens Tonearm then I'd look at repacing this before anything else. For a few hundred USD you can get a brand new Jelco tonearm which has the same effective length as the Linn arms and the same mounting pattern. Swapping out the arm is simply a case of unscrewing and dropping in a new armboard from soundsupports
Interesting system BTW. You don't see many open baffle speakers around. You should post some pics.
The mods he proposes seem more like upgrades than mods : new arm, new cartridge... The only thing that I could think of as an actual modification would be the addition of dampening on the plinth and lower board. What kind of dampening would you put in there? And what kind mass could I add to the wooden plinth to enhance the stability of the ensemble?
Originally Posted by papomaster /img/forum/go_quote.gif The mods he proposes seem more like upgrades than mods : new arm, new cartridge...
Well the main difference between any vintage deck and a new one is usually in the quality of the tonearm, where designs on the whole have improved a lot since the 1970s and before. Your Shure V15IV would work fine on any of the arms mentioned, that's what the damping brush is for. I used a VI5VMR on mine for a while.
Changing the arm is the biggest single change you can make therefore so long as the motorboard is upto it, which in the TD160's case it obviously is. The TD125 platter and main bearing are not really much if any different, it's just the electronic motor, top plate and plinth which are.
Also bear in mind when that piece was written the whole vinyl renaissance had yet to really kick off, and it was perfectly possible to aquire a decent old Linn arm, in the UK at least, for 50 quid. Now they are twice that or more.
I got hold of a Valhalla board for my TD160 for around 100 UKP but in the end never bothered to fit it as I moved onto the TD-125. Nowadays I'd probably have gone the whole hog and got the Origin Live turntable power supply upgrade
Quote:
Originally Posted by papomaster /img/forum/go_quote.gif The only thing that I could think of as an actual modification would be the addition of dampening on the plinth and lower board. What kind of dampening would you put in there? And what kind mass could I add to the wooden plinth to enhance the stability of the ensemble?
Thorens actually added bituminous damping on the '80s TD-160 Super version which also had a larger more solid MDF plinth. You can buy these damping bits on ebay pre-cut to fit.
Originally Posted by papomaster /img/forum/go_quote.gif However, if I have to evolve my turntable, I will most probably get a newer model, like a Music hall 9.1, a pro-ject model 9 or a clearaudio emotion.
Please keep searching for vintage TT. You get so much more for your money.
I recently found 2 Thorens TD124 in Montreal in great shape and yes there's a big difference with TD160, TD160 MKII and TD145. They feel much more solid and the torque is great. As for sound, I didn't have a long listen but was very impressed how the background noise was subtle.
Originally Posted by larryminator /img/forum/go_quote.gif Please keep searching for vintage TT. You get so much more for your money.
I recently found 2 Thorens TD124 in Montreal in great shape and yes there's a big difference with TD160, TD160 MKII and TD145. They feel much more solid and the torque is great. As for sound, I didn't have a long listen but was very impressed how the background noise was subtle.
Again,I believe the biggest differences in the TD160s is in the better plinths and tonearms that were installed on them in later years. Later models actually had smaller bearings which may not be as desirable. The best upgrade would be to install a better more modern tonearm as stated above. The next best thing to do would be to either reinforce the stock plinth or mount the table in a more substantial new plinth. I would probably refrain from doing any damping because this could actually kill the sound which seems to conform with more modern thought. Any tonearms which work on the Linn should also work on the Thorens and any unipivot designs seem to sing on the TD160s as well.
Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif I had a TD160 BCII and upgraded to a TD125II. They are very different and the 125 is a big upgrade in most respects.
A big weakness of the TD160 is the build quality of the plinth which, since it was always a cost conscious design, is usually a fairly lightweight resonant plywood box. A lot of people add internal bracing to make it more rigid or ditch it altogther in favour of a heavier hardwood one. This will be a massive upgrade making the deck more equivalent to a Linn LP12.
More important still is the tonearm. The original stock Thorens tonearms are ok but can be improved upon massively. The problem here is that because the TD160 has a pretty springy nervous suspension it doesn't like anything too heavy. Mine came with an SME 3009 S2 Improved which is a very popular classic but can sound a little dated depending on your musical tastes. I also tried an SME III which was lovley but a bit too smooth and the various Linn budget arms like the LVV and LVX which on balance I found to be the best upgrade. The usual favourite today though is a Rega RB250 which us arguably better than any of the aforementioned, but these don't gel so well with the 160's suspension. You could upgrade the springs to the later stiffer Linn type but this changes the character of the sound and here is the most tricky question.
The TD160 is a finely balanced performer and once you start to mess with the suspension you start to loose something of the characteristic sound. Like the Linn LP12 it has this wonderful ability with rhythms and makes everything you play on it sound fast and engaging rhythmically. But you could also view this as colouration of course. For instance I listen to a lot of electronic music and know what a classic Roland drum machine is meant to sound like. The TD160 always made it sound like a live drummer which is great if you listen to rock for instance as it makes the drumming sound better, but it's not strictly accurate.
So I stopped upgrading the TD-160 and got hold of a TD-125 which is a much heavier construction. The top plate is a quarter inch steel so the suspension is much firmer and less bouncy. Fitting heavier arms like the Linn Ittok or various Regas is therefore not such an issue. I ended up with a fully modded Origin Live Rega RB-250 which sounds far more neutral and accurate accross a wide range of music and although it can sound a bit flat in the mids a judicious choice of cart and phonostage brings it nicely into equilibrium which was what I was looking for.
I don't have a TD-124 but I do have a Lenco L-75 which is an idler. I havn't upgraded this yet to the same degree as my Thorens, but I can see the potential for sure. What the idler drive has is this sense of total solidity. The best way to describe it would be the difference between a normal integrated amp and a full on pre-power set. It's the illusion of creating a real 3D space where a drum sounds like an actual object being hit with force as opposed to an interesting collage of rhythmic tones more evocative of the movement of the player than what he's actually playing, which is what the TD-160 does so well.
So really it comes down to what you like about the sound of your TD-160 and what kind of music you listen to. You can upgrade your TD-160 but be conscious of it's strengths and why it's so special to begin with. If you like the smooth cultured feel of the Thorens but want more neutrality go for the TD-125 or 126. If you want more of the rhythmic fireworks of the 160 but better go for an older Linn LP12. If you want the accuracy of an ilder drive then I'd go for a Lenco as they are much cheaper than a TD124, or for a slightly more lightweight but far less hastle option, a Technics SL1200 with an upgraded tonearm has a lot to offer.
Originally Posted by larryminator /img/forum/go_quote.gif Please keep searching for vintage TT. You get so much more for your money.
I recently found 2 Thorens TD124 in Montreal in great shape and yes there's a big difference with TD160, TD160 MKII and TD145. They feel much more solid and the torque is great. As for sound, I didn't have a long listen but was very impressed how the background noise was subtle.
so are you saying the td160 and 145 have more tork than the 124 125?
Originally Posted by RockinCannoisseur /img/forum/go_quote.gif so are you saying the td160 and 145 have more tork than the 124 125?
and which is a better tt the 145 or the 160
thanks
The 145 is basically a 160 with an auto stop and arm lift. I believe larryminator is saying the rim drive Thorens TD124 sounds more solid than the light frame TD160 class belt drive turntables. Vintage Thorens turntables are desirable because they all came with good motors and platter bearings,(good motor boards). The rim drive models will sound firmer than the belt drive models and the heavy frame belt drive models models will sound different from the light frame belt drive models. They all can of course be improved with better modern tonearms and heavier more solid plinths.
I am a newby so please forgive any stupid questions
I plan to build a media rack from massive countertop (35mm massive wood), about 160cm wide and 45cm high. Looking at DIY plints that people have made I wonder if it would be a good idea to integrate a record player straight into the top board (creating a "integrated plint" by adding two more layers of the same board).
It seems that one can buy on ebay a decent Thorens starting from 250E, and everyone keeps telling me they are best value for money. I ammore than capable to handle the mechanics and electronics, but I am a dummy when it comes to sound quality etc.. So -keeping in mind that I would like to achieve a system that doesn't make an enthusiast run of with bleeding ears- my question is:
If I plan to take the drive train and tonearm out to integrate it into my own contraption, and I want to keep the amount of dials and buttons to a minimum to keep it clean and hassle free, what model(s) should I look out for?
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