[krismusic]

If you are feeling patient have a read of this and see if you can help stopping me waste hard earned money.
I am in the very fortunate position of having a few hundred pounds to spend.
I am in the unfortunate position of being 58!
My aim is to put together a nice set up to last the rest of my days.
I listen to IEM's most of the time but thought that a home rig would be nice.
I have bought a pair of HD600's which seems like a good start.
Then I started looking into amps.
I had convinced myself that the Lehman Linear was the way forward. Although I suspect that a lot if what I will be paying for is nice build quality.
Then someone suggested that I could get a portable amp that would drive my IEM's when I am out and about. I listen a lot this way.
The Cypherlabs Theorem DAC Amp came up.
This led me into the realms of bypassing the DAC in my iPhone 5s and the possibility of using a balanced output.
I am sceptical of both these options.
I have read on here pretty convincing accounts of all DAC's sounding the same.
Balanced operation is designed to counter problems associated with long cable runs used in pro situations AFAIK.
I am starting to smell BS.
Am I right in thinking that the DAC in the iPhone is fine?
That my Headstage Arrow powers my IE8's just fine?
That a desktop is the best option for the HD600's?
That I do not need balanced outputs?
Thank you Very much for any light in the darkness!

 

[earthpeople]

For what it's worth, I've used my IE8s with various portable DAPs as well as amps, and I ended up selling all the amps because they didn't make a difference and only added bulk. The iPhone DAC is good, and I think a modest desktop setup for the HD600s would be a better investment.

 

[bufferoverflow]

Q : Am I right in thinking that the DAC in the iPhone is fine?
A : Yes and all measurements confirm this .
Q : That my Headstage Arrow powers my IE8's just fine?
A : Yes.
Q : That a desktop is the best option for the HD600's?
A : No. It doesn't matter if the amp is 'desktop' or 'portable'
Q : That I do not need balanced outputs?
A : Correct, unless you like paying for twice as many components .
 

 

[krismusic]

Sounds like I am basically back on the right track. Thank you for the replies. Appreciated.
It exasperates me that there is so much bollo and wishful thinking in this hobby. I needed a reality check!
One thing. This all started when I first used the Arrow to power the HD 600's. They don't sound quote right to me. Especially the top end seems scratchy and ill defined. It sounded a lot better when I borrowed a friend's Musical Fidelity amp. Does it make sense that there is some kind of miss match between the Arrow and the 600's?

 

[proton007]

Sounds like I am basically back on the right track. Thank you for the replies. Appreciated.
It exasperates me that there is so much bollo and wishful thinking in this hobby. I needed a reality check!
One thing. This all started when I first used the Arrow to power the HD 600's. They don't sound quote right to me. Especially the top end seems scratchy and ill defined. It sounded a lot better when I borrowed a friend's Musical Fidelity amp. Does it make sense that there is some kind of miss match between the Arrow and the 600's?

 
The point about desktop vs portable amps doesn't have a simple yes/no answer.
 
A headphone is a power consuming device, and an amplifier is a power delivery device. The form factor is irrelevant *as long as the amp and headphone have good impedance matching and the amp has enough power*.
 
What usually happens is that portable amps lack the voltage for high impedance headphones, but you can never say that for sure unless you know the amp specs.
 
Read my thread, perhaps it will help you out.

 

[krismusic]

Thanks Proton. Got a link to the thread that you mention?

 

[proton007]

Thanks Proton. Got a link to the thread that you mention?

Check my signature (below)

 

[bigshot]

Here is the simplest advice you will ever get around here...
 
Plug your headphones into your iPhone. Can you turn it up loud enough? Does it sound full and clear through the whole sound spectrum?
 
If the answer to both these questions is yes, you don't need an amp.
 
If the answer to both these questions is no, you might need an amp.
 
If it gets loud, but doesn't sound full and clear from bass to treble, then you need to equalize to correct for an imbalance in your headphones.

 

[krismusic]

I will check that out tonight Bigshot.
Proton, your sig does not seem to appear on my phone. I'll have a look later on my desktop. Thanks.

 

[krismusic]

Hi Bigshot.
I can hear no difference at all using the HO of the phone or my portable amp with the HD600's.
However. With my IE8 IEM's there is a definite benefit to using the amp. It ameliorates the mid bass pluminess that the IE8's are prone to.
I just did a blind test with a friend to try and prove if this was in my imagination.
Out of 27 tries I correctly identified if it was the amp or the HO 20 times.
I suspect that what is going on with the 600's is that neither the phone nor the portable amp are driving them well.
I was pleased that the benefit of using the amp with my IEM's seems to be real though.
This experience leads me to think that the 600's would benefit from a full size amp.

 

[bigshot]

It's more likely that the in ears need amping and the headphones don't.

 

[SilverEars]

  Does it sound full and clear through the whole sound spectrum?
 
 

This.  Just because you have it plugged and volume is adequate doesn't mean the drivers are pushing all frequencies well.

 

I personally would have to diagree with you.  I have heard the iphone, and something I've noticed is that I perceive the sound as being thin, which means that high-mids to highs are overemphasized, and low end is not as powerful so the sounds stage is very weak.  I am not a fan of the Iphone sound, but I think the classic sounds fine.  

 

[cjl]

  It's more likely that the in ears need amping and the headphones don't.

It's also possible (though I wouldn't think it would be the case with the IE8) that the headphones do benefit from amping, despite getting plenty loud. I've experienced this most strongly with my Denon headphones (AH-D2k/D5k). They have pretty low impedance, and sound noticeably different if driven from my Xonar Essence STX directly (10 ohm output impedance) vs from my O2 (<0.1 ohm output impedance). Specifically, the bass loses some of its definition, since the drivers are no longer damped very well electrically (and no amount of EQ would fix this). That having been said, my IE80s don't seem to have this problem, so I would be surprised if the IE8s did.

 

[proton007]

  It's also possible (though I wouldn't think it would be the case with the IE8) that the headphones do benefit from amping, despite getting plenty loud. I've experienced this most strongly with my Denon headphones (AH-D2k/D5k). They have pretty low impedance, and sound noticeably different if driven from my Xonar Essence STX directly (10 ohm output impedance) vs from my O2 (<0.1 ohm output impedance). Specifically, the bass loses some of its definition, since the drivers are no longer damped very well electrically (and no amount of EQ would fix this). That having been said, my IE80s don't seem to have this problem, so I would be surprised if the IE8s did.

 
Impedance mismatching can be an issue, BUT in the case where there's a real mismatch, the effects are noticeable in the volume itself.
 
Try using a 10 Ohm Headphone/IEM with an iPhone/iPod. As you increase the volume on the player/phone, notice the 'real' change in volume. There's a point beyond which the 'real' volume stops changing, even if the phone/player's volume is increased. Basically the system is too inefficient, and the batteries can only provide so much current.
 
If the headphone's impedance has some wild variation in relation to frequency, then yes, your assertion is correct, there's a mismatch in some frequency zones.
 
However, its hard to say if just 'hearing' a 'noticeable difference' is an indication of this issue. It just may be a volume mismatch.

 

[cjl]

   
Impedance mismatching can be an issue, BUT in the case where there's a real mismatch, the effects are noticeable in the volume itself.
 
Try using a 10 Ohm Headphone/IEM with an iPhone/iPod. As you increase the volume on the player/phone, notice the 'real' change in volume. There's a point beyond which the 'real' volume stops changing, even if the phone/player's volume is increased. Basically the system is too inefficient, and the batteries can only provide so much current.
 
If the headphone's impedance has some wild variation in relation to frequency, then yes, your assertion is correct, there's a mismatch in some frequency zones.
 
However, its hard to say if just 'hearing' a 'noticeable difference' is an indication of this issue. It just may be a volume mismatch.

 
It really doesn't sound like a volume mismatch to me, and since both the STX and the O2 can drive my Denon D2000/D5000s (I own both) to well past where I would ever want to hear them volume-wise, I can't really perform that experiment. I also don't have any really good way to ABX them from the two sources. That having been said, I doubt it's a volume difference. The bass sounds pretty clearly muddier with the STX, which is what I would expect due to the reduction in electrical damping of the driver when used with a high output impedance. I don't own any headphones that have significant impedance variation with frequency, so that's not a problem for me, and as I said, the IE80s that I own don't seem to rely on electrical damping for clean bass to the extent that the Denons do, since they sound similar to me from both the STX and the O2.
 
I do understand that without the ability to submit this to a proper double blind test, it is subject to my own expectation bias, but unfortunately, I don't have any real way around that at the moment. At the same time, there is at least the possibility of this effect, since there is a real physical mechanism (that is not theoretically insignificant) at play.