[llama_egg]

I originally asked this question in the computer audio forum, as I wasn't 100% sure whether it should go there or here, considering the fact that their both amp related. But it seems as though I'm not getting any replies, so hopefully you guys can help me out here.
 
Also, wall of text inc.
 
In a nutshell my computer use to have a Forte' that went ca-put on me after a year, and originally was just going to go for another sound card (Asus Sonar STX). But after this noob started digging around head-fi I started to learn about DAC's, and the ability to plug actual amps to a computer, giving, while more expensive, better quality sound. As I've always wanted to get into higher end audio I figured this was a good place to get my feet wet!

 
Currently I'm running my M-Audio Q40's from on-board audio (booo!). They've served me faithfully over the years, and yes, they don't take much to run, but I want to be a bit more "future" proof, for when I finally take the plunge I might grab something like the Denon AH-D7000, or something else, depending on what my ears find joyful at the time, to replace my Q40's.
 
Of course this isn't happening till down the road a bit of buying an actual amp, but one step at a time eh'?
 
Now, for the most part, I wanted my limit to be around $400-500, but, it's looking as though I might have an exception to this.
 
After thread after thread jumping I stumbled across the Schiit Lyr, which while expensive, looks like a sexy beast, plus it has roll-able amps which was definitely something I wanted to play with. So I was contemplating grabbing a DAC, something like the Nuforce uDAC-2 for now (as it's not like my Q40's are requiring something huge to push, but should help with better sound than on-board), then save the extra dough over the next couple months and if the Lyr looks like a winner, order myself one. That is how it works correct? It would be the uDAC-2 > Lyr > 'Phones?
 
Anyway guys, idea's? Opinions? Criticism's? This noob will take any help he can get!

 

[kboe]

 
 
Sounds like you've got your ducks in a row.  The uDAC is a great performer and sounds fantastic.  The Lyr would be a great choice when it comes out, but it may be too much drive for low impedance headphones like your current ones and the Denons you mentioned.  The Asgard would be a good choice if you wanted to stick with easy to drive cans.

 

[Yoga Flame]

For efficient headphones, a good DAC will be much more important than a powerful amp. Many DACs also come with a built in headphone amp, so you could get something like that first, and put off purchasing a dedicated amp until you really need one.
 
The Yulong D100 is a high end DAC with a very good headphone amp section that easily handles both low and high impedance headphones through separate jacks. At least, that's according to all the opinions and reviews I've come across. I'm looking into getting one myself right now. It's within your budget at $470 shipped from Tam's Audio (aka coolfungadget).

 

[llama_egg]

Thanks for the replies guys! Still not 100% sure what 'phones I'll be getting in the future, the Denon's do sound like a good choice, but I'm not dishing out the $600+ for a pair of 'phones till I head into the city and start trying different pairs out. Denon's, Grado's or even Beyerdynamic, CHOICES!
 
Currently for a DAC I've been looking at both the uDac-2 as well as the TubeMagic D1, both seem like good choices and roughly within the same price range. Not sure if I want to be dishing out nearly $500 for my first DAC choice, pretty sure I would have a stroke at that point!
 
And speaking of impedance's, is anyone able to put it in more layman terms? I keep trying to get a grasp of it, but it seems as though I keep getting different opinions on how it works. Lower impedance's are easier to run, while higher take more to push correct? In that case what happens when low impedance 'phones are paired with amps that are intended for higher impedance's?

 

[Yoga Flame]

You may want to also consider the Audinst HUD-mx1 as your entry level DAC/amp then. $179 shipped.
 
 
Since I'm not an engineer, the following explanation will be 100% layman written  (No guarantees on accuracy though.)
 
There are two major factors in amping headphones. Impedance and sensitivity. High sensitivity headphones will sound louder at the same volume knob level than low sensitivity headphones. Usually, sensitive headphones also have low impedance. For example, the 32 ohm Grado SR60 are much more sensitive than the 600 ohm Beyerdynamic DT880.
 
But that doesn't necessarily mean all low impedance headphones are easy to amp. I have read accounts of the 32 ohm version of DT880 still needing good amplification to perform well. And of course there is the AKG K701 that is only 62 ohms, but is one of the hardest dynamic headphones to amp properly. It has low impedance, and also low sensitivity.
 
Tube amps output lots of voltage, and they have a high output impedance. So they work well with high impedance headphones. They won't work as well with low impedance headphones, as those need more current rather than voltage. Orthos like the HE-6 and LCD-2 headphones need a lot of current, and so that's where powerful amps like the Schiit Lyr that you mentioned come in. The Lyr is a hybrid amp with a solid state output section that pumps out lots of current.

 

[llama_egg]

Ah, thanks! Give's me a better idea of what's going on with the numbers, trying to go from "you know, that sound that exits the 'phones is good right?" to technobable of the audiophile world!
 
And I'll keep a look out for the mx1, it's absolutely within the price range I'm looking at for a DAC right now, though I still have to figure out if it's worth the $50 premium over the uDAC-2, or even spending an extra $20 on top of that and get the TubeMagic (though the tube itself would actually be worthless to me at the moment, as it's intended as a preamp, at least that's to my understanding). Heh, I thought I was suppose to be removing choices not adding them!

 

[kboe]

Quote:

Ah, thanks! Give's me a better idea of what's going on with the numbers, trying to go from "you know, that sound that exits the 'phones is good right?" to technobable of the audiophile world!
 
And I'll keep a look out for the mx1, it's absolutely within the price range I'm looking at for a DAC right now, though I still have to figure out if it's worth the $50 premium over the uDAC-2, or even spending an extra $20 on top of that and get the TubeMagic (though the tube itself would actually be worthless to me at the moment, as it's intended as a preamp, at least that's to my understanding). Heh, I thought I was suppose to be removing choices not adding them!

 
Welcome to HeadFI!

 

[llama_egg]

Hehe, that I'm noticing indeed, just hopefully it won't go from adding choices to buying multiple choices instead!

 

[llama_egg]

Well, looks like the Tubemagic is out, from what I've gathered it makes a good pre-amp but only a so-so amp by itself. If I was buying an amp right from the get go it might be a different story; but considering I might go a few months without one (possibly longer if things go right and I move to the city come spring), I want something that still sounds good and will still do a good job running a separate amp in the future.
 
Currently still looking between the uDac-2 and the mx1, trying to look through pages upon pages of info checking features, sound signatures and what not.

 

[_Spanky_]

Quote:

Well, looks like the Tubemagic is out, from what I've gathered it makes a good pre-amp but only a so-so amp by itself. If I was buying an amp right from the get go it might be a different story; but considering I might go a few months without one (possibly longer if things go right and I move to the city come spring), I want something that still sounds good and will still do a good job running a separate amp in the future.
 
Currently still looking between the uDac-2 and the mx1, trying to look through pages upon pages of info checking features, sound signatures and what not.

The TubeMagic D1 does have a somewhat weak amp stock. A lot of this is due to the LF353N opamps used. If you've got some allen wrenches, a philips screwdriver and a couple minutes, you can replace it and get rid a lot of the nasty sound. The LF353N is very shrill and lacking bass, it's really terrible with bright cans. Pop in a LM4562 and it turns into a nice unit, some people even say burn-in helps. Obviously if you're not comfortable with opening the unit up, it's not for you. But if you don't mind a little work, it's a nice all in one unit that has upgrade potential down the road (external transport, external amp, tube/opamp upgrades).

 

[llama_egg]

Can honestly say I didn't think about changing the opamps, and considering that I basically live inside my computer I'm sure changing one wouldn't be too hard. Saying that though, the addition of cost is a bit annoying, as it can go from a simple $20 difference to a $60 difference depending on what opamps you go for.
 
It's something to look at, for sure, but it does knock it out of the price ratio of the other two.

 

[_Spanky_]

It's frowned upon but you can get free LM4562 samples. If you want to pay, I'm sure you can pick up several for $5-$8 or maybe less.

 

[llama_egg]

So I've been digging between the uDAC-2, mx1, Tubemagic D1 and the Audio-gd NFB-12, such a pain that most of this stuff isn't available in Canada making it more costly to ship! 
 
Anywho, been trying to keep tabs on each one, I think I got a rough idea of each one.
 
 

  Maverick Audio TubeMagic D1 Retail: $199USD + $20USD shipping (Plus possible opamp price) Plus and negatives + Tons of inputs + Great pre-amp + Rollable tube + Rollable opamp + Looks great - Weak amp (how weak? Unsure of) - Possibly required to change the opamp's to get good sound - Tube is not usable without another source (When used as an amp it's SS) - Price after opamp changing The second most expensive listing of the few DAC/amps I'm currently looking at (possibly highest if inclusion of opamps), and with the addition of (possibly) requiring new opamps to make the amp shine raises the price by a possible $10-50USD. It might not be alot extra, but considering it has to be brought into Canada, it does add up. Not to mention the fact that every dollar saved can be put towards the other weakest link in my system, my Q40's. This is a shame considering it seems like a great future unit, tons of inputs, rollable opamps and tube, and seems to be a good pre-amp for the price. But as a solo unit it seems like it's a bit lacking for the price. If it was even $50 cheaper it would seem to be a no brainer, but at the current price it requires a bit more thinking when it comes to grabbing one. --- Audio-gd NFB-12 Retail: $200USD (promo) + $30(ish)USD shipping plus and negatives + Promo price + January offering of a 5% discount - Very little information available - Possibly not shipping till Febuary - No rolling of...things! I'm really trying to figure this one out, theres very little information as it still hasn't shipped out to the masses yet, but on paper it seems like it should be a very nice unit. The promo price and the additional sale price (mind you, it's only $10 off of $200) sits it around $220USD which seems like a pretty dang good offer, heck, making it the same price as the Tubemagic D1. Hard to come to a conlcusion if it's worth the price (and the wait)! --- Audinst HUD-MX1 Retail: $179USD plus and negatives + Free shipping! + Ability to run two 'phones at once (as long as they match the impedance/sensitivity level) + Ability to either run off USB power or wall wart + Able to run up to 600ohm headphones with jumper change + Rollable opamp -/+ Laid back, neutral sound. Could be good or bad depending on the 'phones - Lack of inputs - Not "fun" - Kinda ugly :\ Seems like a great value considering the price point and the inclusion of free shipping. Upgradability on top of the ability to run a wide range of 'phones makes it a very tempting offer. My biggest gripe is how it seems as though it might be "boring" to listen to, so to speak, while this is a moot point once I get a real amp, it's still something to look at. Of course the second problem is the price, it's cheap, great! But it's only a $40 difference between this and the TubeMagic D1 and the NFB-12, both which seem to have more options available to them. --- Nuforce uDAC-2 Retail: $129USD + (unknown shipping cost) plus and negatives + Cheapest of the bunch + Great customer support + Sleek, small - Quality insurence I've heard great things about the uDAC-2, especially at it's price point (though I can't seem to find a shipping rate, at least not till I go to checkout). It seems as though the compnay has great customer service support, having read that they've gone as far as shipped out new units without testing the previous; this is a great sign and is a big plus. On the flip side it seems as though there's been some quality problems as of late. It might not have a lot of options that the others are offering, but depending on it's shipping price to Canada it's something one can't complain about at all.

 

[Yoga Flame]

Well you've certainly done your homework. Great job, and thanks for posting it for others too.
 
The HUD-MX1 and uDAC2 both have USB inputs only. So I'd add "lack of inputs" to the uDAC as well. And how could anyone not like the looks of the Audinst? 

  I'm quite a fan of this DAC myself, which is odd since I have never actually used it. That's because I already have the very nice AMB gamma2 DAC that goes for around twice the price of the Audinst. Thing is, the reviews I've read from people who have tried both say that they come very close to each other. I even purchased one as a gift for someone else. One of these days I'll have to do a comparison for myself.
 
Anyway, if you do decide on the uDAC, be sure to check out Fulcrum Audio. Canadian store, and Head-Fi sponsor.
http://www.fulcrumaudio.ca/CD-Players-and-DAC/Nuforce-Icon-uDAC-2.html

 

[llama_egg]

True you are about the uDAC-2, it's a very simple DAC, but at it's price point it's hard to argue about it. It's looking to be a very strong contender as a entry level DAC, something cheap enough that I don't feel bad about upgrading in the future once other links are improved ('phones, separate amp). And thanks for the link, I couldn't find any Canadian retailers with it!
 
And I enjoy simplistic, square looks of tech compared to the random curves the Audinst has! In all honesty though, I think my biggest iffy point about it is the neutral sound it's suppose to have, but it's very possible I'm thinking differently about the sound signature then it actually is.