[realmassy]

Hi all,
here I come again asking your help and suggestions
 
My current setup: Sonos Zone Player (wired to the router) or Dell Mini for hi-res music, Valab NOS dac, Woo 3, HD650.
Problem is the dac...I really can't find the one for me!
I listen only to classical music and jazz, and with small ensemble (jazz trio and chamber music) the Valab is spot on.
 
I definitely prefer the Valab over my old Audio-GD Ref.5 for that kind of music...but when it comes to complex symphonic music the limits of the Valab are evident, with a congested soundstage and distortion.
The Ref.5 wasn't perfect either, dynamics weren't top notch and it was somehow sterile,...Jazz sounded too polite and 'cold'. 
It maybe different now using the Woo though.
 
I'd like to follow the NOS route and get the Havana, but I'm afraid it will have the same issues of the Valab, and it will sound poor with my symphonies.
On the other hand, the Audio-GD 'musical flavour' dacs may sound too similar to the neutral ones.
 
Options? ideas? Maybe the eastern electric minimax? or the wyred4sound dac1? the new Musical Fidelity M1?
 
Thanks

 

[loopfreak]

Since you are in EU maybe Abrahamsen V6.0 dac. Never heard one but read it has very engaging warmer sound with great soundstage. Hegel hd 10 is option too but nearly at twice the price of V6.0.

 

[realmassy]

Quote:

Since you are in EU maybe Abrahamsen V6.0 dac. Never heard one but read it has very engaging warmer sound with great soundstage. Hegel hd 10 is option too but nearly at twice the price of V6.0.

That sounds interesting indeed. And eventually someone suggesting something different!
 

 

[computerparts]

I'd go for the Havana or an Audio Note. A friend of mine recently sold his Zanden after buying a Havana. I can't see the Havana having the same limitations as the Valab.

 

[dura]

On my speakerbased system I found the Havana sound stage too restrained and now am very happy with the Audio-gd ref 5. However, if you find that sterile you might try going the other way. However, calling the ref5 undynamic puzzles me; it does not have delta sigma sharpness, but I would never describe it as undynamic and it surely is more dynamic then the Havana. (I use it balanced, which sounds more tight around the frequency extremes). The Havana has a very sweet smooth sound, due to its R2R DAC in non oversampling mode and the tube, and my soundstage problems probably don't matter on a headphone system but dynamic...I don't know, and I wonder if dynamic and 'not sterile' aren't up to some point mutually exclusive...?

 

[computerparts]

Quote:

On my speakerbased system I found the Havana sound stage too restrained and now am very happy with the Audio-gd ref 5. However, if you find that sterile you might try going the other way. However, calling the ref5 undynamic puzzles me; it does not have delta sigma sharpness, but I would never describe it as undynamic and it surely is more dynamic then the Havana. (I use it balanced, which sounds more tight around the frequency extremes). The Havana has a very sweet smooth sound, due to its R2R DAC in non oversampling mode and the tube, and my soundstage problems probably don't matter on a headphone system but dynamic...I don't know, and I wonder if dynamic and 'not sterile' aren't up to some point mutually exclusive...?

Don't rule out the possibility that there could have been an impedance mismatch with the Havana in your setup. realmassy should not have any impedance issues with his Woo 3. I did finally get to hear an audio-gd dac running balanced (Ref 7) and I wasn't very impressed. IMO they are overrated.

 

[realmassy]

Thanks for your impressions dura.
It's probably a matter of words, and English is not my first language
 
When I say 'lacking dynamics' I refer probably to micro-dynamics: listen to a piano piece, a Schubert sonata for example.
That's a truly romantic music, full of passion, and through the ref.5 the sound was flat, dull. Left hand and right hand were kind of 'melted' together, I wasn't able to focus on the artistic performance....Really hard to explain it mate!!
The Valab has this ability, and presents the same solo piece with more body, more weight on the notes, Brendel and Pollini will sound the same piece in a totally different way, and those differences are easy to spot on with the Valab.
 
To my ears the Ref.5 in that context was sterile.
 
But with a large orchestra the Ref.5 was clearly, technically better: never heard distortion I'm hearing now.
 
But there's also a difference in my setup: with the Ref.5 I was using the Roc, with ACSS and balanced output, now I have a warm tube amp, the Woo 3.  

 

[realmassy]

I've just noticed that I could buy the Havana on ebay, and returns are accepted.
I will probably loose money for shipping, but t's not a big deal....I'm really tempted now

 

[computerparts]

Just wanted to chime in again. If you want unparalleled separation and air for large scale orchestra, you need to spend the big bucks IMO. If you just want an improvement from the Valab, the Havana will more than suffice. From what I've read, the limitations of the Havana can only be noticed when in direct comparison to truly reference level equipment. For that unparalleled separation and layering, I would recommend any Levinson dac. They do have a bit of a dry character but that Woo 3 should balance it out nicely.

 

[haloxt]

computerparts, could you describe in more detail your impressions of the audio-gd balanced setup, and what the setup was? I am not trying to start a debate and won't argue with your reply, just am interested to hear more impressions. And I am of the opinion that not everybody prefer the sort of presentation of audio-gd's neutral balanced setups.
 
realmassy, you've said you wanted something very different than audio-gd's neutral gear, but from reading what others have said, the musical line is NOT "very different" from the neutral line. I think you would be disappointed. I don't really know what would satisfy you since you have taken pretty much all of my advice on getting the most out of your ref 5+roc but still you were unsatisfied. If you still feel like trying your luck with audio-gd, something that may be quite different would be... ref 9+st 7 preamp modified into a headphone amp.
 
I would ask Kingwa what he thinks about ref 5 balanced vs ref 9 single-ended, but judging by using dac9mk3 in SE rather than balanced, the difference is small increase in bass and microdetail, larger than what you notice from using a power filter.
 
I would also ask him what he thinks about st-7 for someone who vastly prefers musicality, it may be just the coloration you are looking for

.
 
 
Quote:

[size=x-small]By replacing the C-3 with the ST-7 pre-amp, the sound immediately changes to another flavor, clarity and sound stage displayed as before, bass is [/size] [size=x-small]resilient and dynamic, but the high-mid becomes softly round and rich, female voice appears slender, tender and full of sentiment, the harp imitates like the falling bead to the jade plate, the violin sounds touching, Ancient Zheng sounds less sharp, seems surreal. But the sound is joyfully easy, like dreaming. A more expensive hi-end tube product could not achieve this balance.[/size]

 

 

[Dynobot]

I had the Havana before....
 
Compared to the Valab the Havana has blacker backgrounds, better on vocals and soundstage but is not as dynamic.  The bass is not as organic the highs are not as extended and airy.
 
But if you do end up buying the Havana I have a bunch of Great unused tubes for it. 
 
Quote:

Hi all,
here I come again asking your help and suggestions
 
My current setup: Sonos Zone Player (wired to the router) or Dell Mini for hi-res music, Valab NOS dac, Woo 3, HD650.
Problem is the dac...I really can't find the one for me!
I listen only to classical music and jazz, and with small ensemble (jazz trio and chamber music) the Valab is spot on.
 
I definitely prefer the Valab over my old Audio-GD Ref.5 for that kind of music...but when it comes to complex symphonic music the limits of the Valab are evident, with a congested soundstage and distortion.
The Ref.5 wasn't perfect either, dynamics weren't top notch and it was somehow sterile,...Jazz sounded too polite and 'cold'. 
It maybe different now using the Woo though.
 
I'd like to follow the NOS route and get the Havana, but I'm afraid it will have the same issues of the Valab, and it will sound poor with my symphonies.
On the other hand, the Audio-GD 'musical flavour' dacs may sound too similar to the neutral ones.
 
Options? ideas? Maybe the eastern electric minimax? or the wyred4sound dac1? the new Musical Fidelity M1?
 
Thanks

 

[computerparts]

Quote:

computerparts, could you describe in more detail your impressions of the audio-gd balanced setup, and what the setup was? I am not trying to start a debate and won't argue with your reply, just am interested to hear more impressions. And I am of the opinion that not everybody prefer the sort of presentation of audio-gd's neutral balanced setups.
 
realmassy, you've said you wanted something very different than audio-gd's neutral gear, but from reading what others have said, the musical line is NOT "very different" from the neutral line. I think you would be disappointed. I don't really know what would satisfy you since you have taken pretty much all of my advice on getting the most out of your ref 5+roc but still you were unsatisfied. If you still feel like trying your luck with audio-gd, something that may be quite different would be... ref 9+st 7 preamp modified into a headphone amp.
 
I would ask Kingwa what he thinks about ref 5 balanced vs ref 9 single-ended, but judging by using dac9mk3 in SE rather than balanced, the difference is small increase in bass and microdetail, larger than what you notice from using a power filter.
 
I would also ask him what he thinks about st-7 for someone who vastly prefers musicality, it may be just the coloration you are looking for

.
 
 
 

The setup was:
 
Transport - mbl 1621
Dac - audio-gd Ref 7
Pre - mbl 6010D
Amp - two mbl 9007 in mono configuration
Speakers - Martin Logan Summit
Cabling - Virtual Dynamics Master
 
This is my professor's system. A note before I begin, he burns in everything for 2 weeks prior to critical listening. The audio-gd was being directly compared to a Theta Gen Va also running balanced which is one of his "spare" dacs. It was the only one of his dacs on hand that comes close in price to the audio-gd. The Theta excelled in dynamics and transparency, but the audio-gd was smoother, retrieved more detail, and added a touch more air. However, it couldn't come close in the PRAT department to the Theta. The audio-gd exhibited a smoothness effect to every disc that I felt was synthetic and sucked the life out of the music. On the audio-gd, the leading edge to every instrument was missing or greatly subdued. Some folks like this sort of thing, but not me. Where as with the Theta, you could clearly hear the the attack and decay of every instrument. The audio-gd was also a bit dry and voices and instruments lacked the body of the Theta. Cymbals on the audio-gd had greater extension, but again, I felt it was synthetic and even worse, it lacked body. This made a cymbal strike sound like it was made of steel! Eventually it gave me a headache. It's possible these traits wouldn't be as noticeable on a system that's less revealing, those Logans reveal everything. Theta has long held a reputation for thunderous bass and this was no exception. Where the audio-gd would boom, the Theta would BOOM! IMO the Theta was much more involving and sounded more realistic. For such an old dac, the Theta sure does hold its own. He also has an mbl 1611F and currently auditioning an Ayon Skylla, but we didn't bother to compare those to the audio-gd since they are way above its price level.

 

[realmassy]

Thanks for you replies.
I sent Kingwa an email describing limits (IMHO) of Ref.5 and the sound I'm looking for and I realize I'm probably asking too much for a $1000 DAC.
He will maybe suggest to save up for Ref.7
I'm tempted to add a DAC19 with DSP to my setup (I don't need balanced), leaving the Valab for jazz and chamber music.

 

[realmassy]

Quote:

I had the Havana before....
 
Compared to the Valab the Havana has blacker backgrounds, better on vocals and soundstage but is not as dynamic.  The bass is not as organic the highs are not as extended and airy.
 
But if you do end up buying the Havana I have a bunch of Great unused tubes for it. 
 

 

Thanks again Dynobot.
That description of the Havana does not fit the sound I'm looking for What I like most on the Valab is its organic presentation.
Also I'm now using a cheap Bada power filter on both valab and woo amp and background is blacker, leading to an improved instruments separation.

 

[Dynobot]

Replacing the Valab is pretty difficult, I tried for about 2 years and went through a number of Dacs in the process.  The hard part is finding a Dac in the 1K range that is solidly head and shoulders better as to justify its worth.  Some of the Dac's I purchased and had on loan were the RME Fireface [loan], Apogee mini Dac [purchase], Havana [purchase], TC Konnekt 8 [purchase], Matrix Mini Dac [purchase], M-Audio ProFire 610 [purchase], Behringer SRC 2496 [purchase].  The only Dac on the list that clearly beat it was the RME but at 7-times the price I decided not to bite.  The Valab is not perfect but it just has a unique musicality about it.