[trains are bad]

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It is desingned for heavy use in a club setting, which it is pretty damn good at.

This is absolutely wrong.

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The new decks you buy today for 500USD are no better than the entry level decks of the 1980s, which is in fact what many of them are.

This is absolutely true.

I used to think that 70s players were better than all but the $1000+ audiophile modern players. I think I was wrong, I now think that the 70s players are better than modern decks at any price. I hate the fact that it costs 300 dollars for a player that is a toy compared to the players available at the height of the vinyl era.

 

[adhoc]

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Originally Posted by trains are bad /img/forum/go_quote.gif I used to think that 70s players were better than all but the $1000+ audiophile modern players. I think I was wrong, I now think that the 70s players are better than modern decks at any price. I hate the fact that it costs 300 dollars for a player that is a toy compared to the players available at the height of the vinyl era.

Exactly! Look at what a $1000 gets you today - a Rega P3 with a nice cart? A second-hand VPI Scout? The Thorens TD-124 mkII came out in 1966, and retailed for $99.75 new then (sans arm).

That's $630 in today's dollars, adjusted for inflation. Notice any difference between a TD124 and a Rega P3?

The P3 retails for ~$800 today. It's a piece of MDF with a float glass platter. The TD124 is die cast aluminum, and weighs in at 15kg - just remember that aluminum is a light metal and you begin to see the type of thought and care that went into its design and construction. The TD124 motor also beats the P3 motor about like a red headed stepchild.

The whole industry has changed - nowadays $250 will get you... a dust cover. $1200 will get you... a VPI "super platter" (just the platter, nothing else).

 

[memepool]

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Originally Posted by adhoc /img/forum/go_quote.gif Exactly! Look at what a $1000 gets you today - a Rega P3 with a nice cart? A second-hand VPI Scout? The Thorens TD-124 mkII came out in 1966, and retailed for $99.75 new then (sans arm). That's $630 in today's dollars, adjusted for inflation. Notice any difference between a TD124 and a Rega P3? The P3 retails for ~$800 today. It's a piece of MDF with a float glass platter. The TD124 is die cast aluminum, and weighs in at 15kg - just remember that aluminum is a light metal and you begin to see the type of thought and care that went into its design and construction. The TD124 motor also beats the P3 motor about like a red headed stepchild. The whole industry has changed - nowadays $250 will get you... a dust cover. $1200 will get you... a VPI "super platter" (just the platter, nothing else).

To be fair to the manufacturers though, it's not just inflation that you need to take into account. The market has fundamentally changed as well.

In the UK the Rega RB250 tonearm for instance is 123UKP whereas in 1982 it was 85UKP so if anything it's actually cheaper if you factor in inflation. What makes it more expensive in the USA is the weakness of the dollar / strength of sterling on the money markets.
Similarly Japanese equipment has got more expensive for the quality you get because the Yen is worth a lot more now than it was in the 1970s. Yes it's still beautifully finished on the whole but the really high-end stuff is not even always sold outside Japan because it would be too expensive.

Turntables are sightly different because they are such a niche item these days. SME arms were much cheaper in the '70s when they sold more of them compared to today becuase Hi-Fi was the first real consumer electronics market. Now these manufacturers have to compete with computers and home cinema and video games for the same disposable income.

The Linn LP12 is just as well made today as anything from the 70s as is the Michell Gyrodeck or the SME V. You pay a lot more money becuase these are hand build rather than mass produced products. Although the best part of 2 grand for the new Linn Keel upgrade does seem extortionate....

 

[adhoc]

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Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif The Linn LP12 is just as well made today as anything from the 70s as is the Michell Gyrodeck or the SME V. You pay a lot more money becuase these are hand build rather than mass produced products. Although the best part of 2 grand for the new Linn Keel upgrade does seem extortionate....

I hear you - Linn prices are ridiculous... even (some may say especially) considering what you get. If you want to walk the Linn trail, go second hand. They're usually well taken care of and some may even prefer the "pre-upgrade" sound.

 

[memepool]

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Originally Posted by adhoc /img/forum/go_quote.gif I hear you - Linn prices are ridiculous... Even factoring in what you get. If you want to walk the Linn trail, go second hand. They're usually well taken care of and some may even prefer the "pre-upgrade" sound.

I'm with you there although I preferred my Logic DM-101 over the late '80s spec LP12 I auditioned. More neutral sounding. I have been told the modern spec ones are a bit too sterile and a '70s spec LP12 is the one to go for so I may well have a look out for one.
I did read in the UK trade press recently that they had to let a load of people go in the last few years so perhaps they did overstrain themselves with the likes of the CD12. But now there is a resurgence of interest in turntables they should be able to return to what they do best.

 

[Skylab]

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Originally Posted by trains are bad /img/forum/go_quote.gif I used to think that 70s players were better than all but the $1000+ audiophile modern players. I think I was wrong, I now think that the 70s players are better than modern decks at any price. I hate the fact that it costs 300 dollars for a player that is a toy compared to the players available at the height of the vinyl era.

Agreed. I use a Denon DP-59L from the early 80's, and I can tell you I have shocked many a VPI-owning audiophile with how good the Denon sounds. Yes, the DP-59L was a "superdeck" at the time - one of the best Denon ever made. But the $500 spent on a used one now is MUCH better than any new $500 deck you can buy, IMO. I have a Benz Micro Wood L2 mounted on it, and it sounds fantastic.

So to the OP: Any of the big, heavy Denon DD decks from the late 70's and early 80's sound awesome. The DP-60L, 62L, 57L, 59L, and 72L are all terrific.

Gratuitous glamour shot:

 

[SweetAdeline]

uh, is this normal? http://cgi.ebay.com/THORENS-TD-160-S...QQcmdZViewItem

Are these really worth that much?

 

[adhoc]

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Originally Posted by SweetAdeline /img/forum/go_quote.gif uh, is this normal? http://cgi.ebay.com/THORENS-TD-160-S...QQcmdZViewItem Are these really worth that much?

That seller usually gets high prices for his stuff - he's a honest chap who packs his stuff exceedingly well (I've purchased from him before).

His auctions also always have massive pictures of the item for sale, and detailed descriptions. That helps him get premium prices - people pay extra for safety of mind.

But no, that table is not worth that much IMO. People sometimes go a little nutty on eBay.

 

[PeterDLai]

Quick and dumb question for a true vinyl noob:

Is a preamplifier all you need to be able to playback vinyls on a set of speakers, such as for example the Swan M-200? Or would you also need an amplifier/power amplifier between the phono pre-amp and the speakers?

 

[memepool]

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Originally Posted by PeterDLai /img/forum/go_quote.gif Is a preamplifier all you need to be able to playback vinyls on a set of speakers, such as for example the Swan M-200? Or would you also need an amplifier/power amplifier between the phono pre-amp and the speakers?

The kind of speakers you mention are active, which usually means they have built in power amplifiers with a single line level input and adjustable gain ( a volume control) .
A phono pre-amp can be plugged straight into these as can anything which outputs a line level signal. Only issue being that you have just one input so a switching box / passive preamplifier would be needed if you intended to use more than one source.