[Kouzelna]

It's another year, and here we go again... I'm still trying to find a DAP I can enjoy working with. Year after year, I'm frustrated and disappointed. Hopefully, this is the year! I'm optimistic! I'm being positive! I need your help!! And I sure appreciate it.

What I want to achieve is simple (or so I think):

I want to duplicate the current experience I already have with my Android phone and PC, but with a high-quality DAP. And for a budget that isn't just shy of the national debt. (Under $400 would certainly be preferable).

My current experience is:

a. create Playlists on my PC using simple drag n' drop
b. connect Android phone to PC, update Playlists.

Boom. Done. That's it.

My collection is currently 320-bit MP3. (Yes, just MP3 - that's what I got - it won't change, not now anyway...). I'm looking to load 'em onto a quality source to run my tube amp and headphones.

The problem so far:

In the past I've only used a DX50. It was like trying to fly across the Atlantic in a paper airplane. But worse. However, the sound is far and above running my amp from the headphone jack of a mobile phone. Other problems have included glitchy reviews on early Android-based DAPs, and outrageous prices on DAPs altogether.

So what I want, is just a quality source that I can easily load with tunes n' playlists, just as I do my phone.

What I ABSOLUTELY DON'T WANT is another weird, offbeat, strange interface on a DAP. Like the DX50, what a nightmare. Or to build my Playlists on the DAP itself, for crying out loud. I have hundreds of Playlists, and thousands of songs - so that just isn't going to happen. I just want to be able to hook the DAP to my PC, and update my Playlists, automated easy-peasy like. Other than that, I will use the "play" feature on my DAP, and the "volume" feature... nothing more. Maybe the EQ. Definitely not the Espresso maker.

Thanks for your help!! Hopefully this is the year it all comes together!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I appreciate your input!

 

[Kouzelna]

Y'know, I have some old HTC One M7 units lying around, which as I understand have great audio circuitry. I wish there was some way to install a line-out jack... would solve my problem. I guess in a nutshell I'm looking for an Android phone that isn't a phone, but a music player, with a quality line-out for running an amp. Sigh...

 

[Kouzelna]

Bump. Nobody has an opinion on this? Am I posted in the wrong place? (First time on the new site).

 

[Tential]

What about the hiby r6?
That's the android dap that catches my eye. Until one beats that on features for me, that's what I plan on getting. Got headphones, I'm making them into ciems, then getting this dap, unless someone beats it with android which I highly doubt.
But android use is extremely important to me since I use my pc and am still hooked to iTunes. So I used rocket player and will only eventually switch to media monkey which means I need an android dap that can work with players that aren't the typical favorites as I use my pc

 

[Kouzelna]

Hey, thanks for the tip.

It looks amazing! But the price is way beyond what I'd like to spend. Perhaps it will come down in time, I hope. The Pioneer R300 is down to about $300, and my friend swears by it. However he doesn't use any apps beyond it's included player, so I don't know how well it works with iTunes/PC, which like you is my whole reason to buy it. I'll write Hiby, and see what they have to say. Any reviews you've seen on it?

I tried MediaMonkey, even got the support of the forum. But in the end, at least in my experience and according to their tech guys, you have to build playlists by using the file tree (Windows 3.0 style), one.... song.... at..... a. ..... time. No simple drag n' drop from folder to playlist. That's a deal-killer for me, and how!!! So, still stuck with iTunes.

I haven't tried MusicBee, but perhaps that's an improvement. Any other advice on players, and I'd love to hear it. I just use iTunes for playlists, but that's about 1% of it's otherwise way overbloated, glitchy, crashy self. I'd love to just have a stripped down player that:

a. can build playlists via drag n' drop
b. can interface with my Android devices to transfer those playlists using iSyncr, as I assume you do as well.

All in all, this situation would continue to allow music and playlist building to be fun, not a chore.

D.

 

[Tential]

Well sadly android has a limitation on it that makes it unpopular to use. Hiby got around it, as did 1-2 others but they're priced even higher than hiby, or work worse with worse performance for running around Android (the snapdragon chip, or in the case of the competitors extremely weak alternatives.)

We are in the very very small minority among this enthusiast group that use iTunes. Many self manage, however personally, I am married to my play count data in iTunes and will not leave it.

As for other Android daps they are not meant to be used with other apps. Many will lock you into the apps used originally, which won't help you with wanting to use iTunes.

I'm unfamiliar with how you use Android with iTunes, but to my knowledge, only rocket player works well.
How do you currently sync iTunes and Android?
If it's with isyncr like me, you really probably can't use the android daps mentioned as a lot are android based, with no play store and no support for external apps.

Your best option may be to buy a used LG v10/v20.
You'll hit the bit perfect resampling issue but that's small, happens on every android device minus the hiby, and no one seems to complain about it.

That's your cheapest android player option.

 

[Kouzelna]

Yes, I use iSyncr. iTunes on the PC, and Poweramp on the phone, which is AWESOOOOME. Would love to try Rocket Player, but I'm so happy with Poweramp 6 years running that I never bothered to try it.

I read about that Android sampling limitation. The new Fiio player works around it too, but has the same plague of glitches and spotty support as Fiio is I guess infamous for, sadly. Bummer because otherwise it looks awesome.

Seems very, very strange to me that we're in the minority, but I guess you're right. I have thousands of songs on my phone. I know people that have tens of thousands. Am I to understand that all these millions of people just build their playlists by hand, one song at a time, on their DSP or Phone? That seems totally insane, if not impossible. What are we missing here??

Thanks for the warning on locking outside apps. I did see that on the Fiio unit, and was shocked! (I almost bought it, actually...). That's kinda the whole point of Android - to use the Google Play Store and utilize your own apps. Sure enough, Fiio's player blocks that. You can sideload, but I don't know if you'll have full functionality. My whole point is to use iSyncr/Poweramp to manage and enjoy my tunes, just as I do on my phone. I'm blown away frankly that this whole thing is so complicated. I would think my/your desires would be the first thing anyone would design into an Android player, after all. Otherwise what's the point??

I'll check out the LG. I can of course use my phone. But the whole point is that I want true digital out from a player with a great DAC and quality audio components. I really love the sound on the DX50, just wish it was easier to use and supported simple playlist building, aka, Android.

 

[Tential]

Yes, it's weird to me. When I originally was looking for a dap I thought it would be no problem. Then I saw almost no one using android. Really, a lot of the dap game, beyond the actual dac/amp itself is a joke to me personally. I don't see how years of "progress" leads the dap market to these products where the hiby r6 stands so far alone the way it does. I didn't know power amp worked with isyncr, interesting. I always thought you had to use Rocket player with isyncr.
The LGv series uses the Same dac that's in the Shanling m0.

I do believe some units let you create Playlists from folders, I'm not remotely interested though in any unit that doesn't have perfect android usage, and that's only the hiby.

The rest just are flawed, and have extremely terrible processors. The hiby using a real "decent" snapdragon is a first. You'd think for some of these daps charging more than the price of a phone that you'd at least get the same processor the phone does, but no, you get a budget chip that's literally under a dollar or so cost wise to them in bulk.

The way you add music to most of these high end dap units is a complete joke to me personally, but it works for the users. I mean, remember it's a niche market, the users who wanted an easy interface used an iPhone/iood, and moved on to Spotify now.

I've just got a new headphone, saving up for the hiby now, will be a bit before I splurge that much, I still keep holding out since it's insane to me I can't get that feature set for cheaper. I may just get the LG phone for cheap and use it as my dedicated dap until I can afford the hiby

 

[Kouzelna]

I'm like you, I just naturally thought an Android DAP was a no-brainer. I mean, only 50 billion people have mobile phones using either Android or iOS to hear their music, right? So a DAP that uses Android, like iPod Touch that use iOS, well it seemed like there'd be thousands of them to choose from. I agree that the DAP market is ridiculous - super high-priced units that use proprietary software. What is this, 1991??

Poweramp will automatically pick up all the .m3u playlists and music files located in the iSyncr folder (Android top directory) without any settings or directions necessary. I think on the initial setup it might ask where your music folder is, but it was so long ago I can't recall. It's such a powerful app, you can drill down to the microdegrees of settings, so I'm sure you can pick whatever directory you want on the phone to use as the music folder.

Well the DX50 allows you to create playlists from folders, but as you say that's not the point: using iTunes means it's easy, which means it's fun. It means anytime I want to update my playlists, add/delete whatever, it's simple, fast and easy. Then I just plug in my phone and iSyncr updates the songs and playlists on my phone. I don't want to screw around with renaming songs (adding song order), arranging separate .m3u lists in folders, etc. I have to do that on my DX50: type up a playlist by hand, save it in a folder with the songs included, and copy to my DX50. Then manually scan, and assign the playlist file to the folder again on the DX50. Then it work. But in the end, I have 20 playlists on my DX50 and rarely update it, whereas my phone has 100 playlists and I'm messing with them all the time because it's so easy. I guess I can only dream that was possible on a decent DAP.

Don't you have a decent phone? I'm not sure why you need the LG. Any Android phone these days will likely sound great with headphones, and with Poweramp you can fine tune the EQ and other sound settings pretty well. But I have an expensive tube amp and some great headphones (obviously, if I'm in this forum, right?). Running that stuff with a phone is a bummer: the shortfalls are really audible. You can instantly hear the difference compared to the qualify of the DX50, and it's a pretty huge difference. So if you're running decent but not expensive headphones straight out of the DAP, then I'd suggest you save your money and just get a phone you like, if you don't already have one. If you'll be running expensive headphones, and/or a pricey DAC or headphone amp, then I'd look for a good DAP, like I am.

In the end, I'll probably end up with a Schiit Modi Multibit. It's a high quality DAC for a great price. I can run a USB signal out of my phone to the DAC with the proper cable, (forget what they're called but I have one), and then run the signal from the DAC to my amp. For $250, that will basically give me the "Android DAP" I'm looking for. In the meantime, I'll just use the DX50. In fact found a replacement battery for it in Germany, for a great price, so it'll stay useful for years to come I hope.

 

[Tential]

The LG phones have dacs from audio focused products. So the LG v30 uses the exact dac found in the Shanling m0.

I have a similar level dac in the m0 found in the sabaj da2.

Personally, it's an upgrade to use the higher level dac.
My s9+ is a good phone, and it does have a better amp section than most phones, but it's not on the same level as an LG v series (and some of the g series) phone dac. The LG phone is the only one really with a good dac, before you go to more obscure phones.

As for an attached system, you can use something like the nx4 dsd. The schiit would only be stationary, you can take the nx4 dsd with you.

I'm also biased against schiit, since I prefer more scientific approaches to audio and less subjective, and all of schiits products objectively test badly on a benchmark suite. Their version 3 products were OK, but the topping nx4 dsd and the upcoming topping product were far ahead of it measurement wise. The topping desktop dac/amp coming up is $220 and tested amazingly.
But for a portable attachment the nx4dsd looks like it'd be your best bet if you're OK with that.

It's just mind boggling android hasn't taken off. Think about it, the hiby r6 last year launched and that was advanced.... It's crazy.

 

[Kouzelna]

Oh, that sounds great. I had the old HTC M7, which was voted phone of the year for audio products. But it still had the standard headphone jack out, sadly. I tried using the USB OTG cable to run my amp, but had no luck with that. I could never get it to work through the DAC I had at the time because it wasn't self powered. How would you run the signal out of the phone, or, would you just plug headphones into the headphone jack? Wouldn't that compromise the sound, and/or, run it through the Android stuff that downgrades the signal? (What is that anyway, Android is forcing the signal through the onboard DAC?)

The nx4 dsd looks cool. Schiit has a similar model which they swear is dynamite, and can even run my AKGs (believe it when I see it, but Schiit makes great stuff). But I'm OK with stationary. This whole setup is for my tube amp, which is a beast - I can barely lift it. I decided long ago, and have never regretted it, to just run cheap headphones straight from the phone when I'm on the go. For various reasons headphones get messed up. I tend to go through 2 pair per year while traveling. (Goes through the wash, girlfriend sitting on it, cable getting caught up in a train door, you name it). I read an audio mag's roundup of 150 headphones under $30 and bought they're top choice: the Panasonic RPM-125 and now have a drawer full of 'em, so when one dies I can pull out the next. I'd say it sounds as good or better than anything <$150, and it costs $15 at this point. It has the sound signature I love anyway, lean/high treble, decent midrange/vocals, light on bass (though it can be improved with memory foam earpads). For plane flights, I've Etymotic's ER-4, DX50 and a great pocket amp designed specifically for the Etys by Biosciencegeek before he retired: https://www.head-fi.org/members/biosciencegeek.47326/ . Makes for a great experience if I want some serious listening. But it's not cool for running through airports, etc., so back to the Panasonics and the phone. (Plus I can use them for calls).

I wasn't aware of Schiit's testing issues, but they seem to build using great components and specifically a wealth of experienced technical knowledge. I imagine they'd say their building for quality and listening, not for test scores. But who knows. I had some great test-crushing equipment over the years and though all of it was amazing, I found it "cold" for my tastes. (I'm a tube guy, after all). The BSG amps are great (and cheap). I'm hoping the Schiit will be as well, but if not, that's what the market is for ha ha!

I agree, I'm just baffled why Android DAP market hasn't taken off. There must be something we're not aware of, licensing issues or as you said, most people are using Spotify or something and our market is too small for companies to bother with us. I think most Head-Fiers will invest in quality at-home gear, not portable. Jeez I really don't know. I'd think building something for Android would be the cheapest, easiest way design portable gear. I mean, you don't have to design anything new, Android is already there for you to design against and apps freely available. What's weird to me is all these units producing their own software apps to run on Android. I'd prefer an utterly stripped version of Android with no apps, that I could ONLY use to run iSyncr, Poweramp, and maybe an alarm clock or something. I don't know... I just don't get it, really.

 

[Tential]

You'd still get the resampling issue yes. It's an issue where because Android is for phone use first something regarding the voice section of the phone forces resampling. I'd say that's a very tiny portion of audio though, but it bothers me personally.
You'd just plug into the headphone jack for the LG v series since it's already got the amp and dac built in. Just like an external unit, like your schiit amp/dac combo like the fulla.

As for schiit testing depends. I personally don't ever trust a company. People like myself work at companies, where our main focus is Financials, and others like me where our main focus isn't product first. I look at the main big site for audio science testing to see results on amps. The fact that schiit will even get their volume matching between channels to be poor is mind boggling. They sell well, but I mean, so does a lot of audio gear. The placebo effect is huge on people. But up to you of course how you amp/dac, but I'd never recommend schiit after seeing how all their products test. Great marketing with a great mark up is how I describe them.
But it's all dependent on your ears, and maybe they just tune for user perception, and not for test results.

I think it's just we use iTunes. People don't like iTunes, or Apple, so many enthusiasts do something else. The thread I remember making about this before, people wanted me to manually manage my music in folders myself. So there are still users like that they cater to.
The resample issue is another.
And I think it's something along the lines as only rock chip chips work without additional work, otherwise you need to do your own work around like hiby to use a more powerful processor.
Personally, I'd pay up to $1k if they could implement the hiby setup into a phone, even if it meant no additional features including no camera.

 

[Kouzelna]

So on the LG V series, which one's which? If I just want it for an audio player, which would you suggest? I don't need a camera, browser etc... that's a phone is for.

I was thinking of going back to my HTC M7 and the OTG cable (still have two of the phones) paired with the Schiit DAC. Perhaps rooting it to erase other non-system apps. Could work great! The M7 runs Android 5.02, which is what I think most of the Android DAPs use anyway, and I have Poweramp etc. already setup on them. You can still get aftermarket batteries for them too. And both my units look like new.

Well, with Schiit I don't know them, but the people that actually design/work there have long experience with other really great companies. That's what attracted me to them. And the prices are really decent for the type of equipment they sell. They're close to where I visit every Christmas, so I'll try to just show up and test their gear as they have a great testing store with all their stuff.

Well, I get hating iTunes. I hate it too! I'd love a stripped down version that does only playlist management. But I don't know another PC program that does Drag n' Drop playlist creation, and syncs with a standard non-Android DAC. Perhaps I should make a post with THAT question. I am not building 100 playlists representing 3500 tunes by hand using a file tree, I mean get serious! Windows Media Player does drag n' drop, but I don't know if it will sync with either my phone or export stuff for a standard DAP. There is a great program called iTunes Export, which I use to export iTunes' playlists into .M3U format. It will even include copies of all the music files in their standard file formats if you choose this option. But the .M3U files still have to be edited a bit by hand, in Wordpad. Then the whole folder can be copied over to my DX50, or likely (I don't know), to Rocket Player and/or Poweramp.

But other than messing with that, I can tell you from experience that:

a. managing playlists separately by folder sucks
b. makes it impossible to do simple playlist updates - you have to remanage it by folder, again

I'm just amazed this seems to be rocket science, when it should be the easiest thing in the world. Where's Steve Jobs when you need him?

 

[Tential]

Lg v30 is too new to be cheap. Lgv20 should be cheaper and lg v10 even better. I believe they all use the same dac, but it could be a slight one time change.
I'll check up again when I'm not at work but I remember checking and seeing no difference between them. I do recall the price being less than $200 to get it set up.

I would use that, or the nx4 dsd portable setup which will have great performance. It's not expensive either. Topping has great reception from audio community.

Yes, it's amazing that iTunes is still the best option for people like us. I was mind boggled to find no other way to manage music well. Spotify really ate into our user group. We're pretty screwed since everyone either uses Spotify (give my data to a new company? They don't let me import Playlists... Or my past data/listening info... .. Pass), or uses folder management. We're in that unloved mid ground

 

[Kouzelna]

Wow. Weird. Seems natural to me to OWN my music collection, and have the backup files. And be able to listen offline. I'm not sure what Spotify is offering these days. But a friend of mine always has issues with it while traveling. Sometimes he can listen, oops, sometimes he can't. I'll ask around, because they may have much more available than I think. But seems to me that if you listen to popular music and live in a big city where you're always connected, it's perfect for you. But that isn't me. And I listen to a lot of bands that are unknown and probably always will be. (European underground metal). I could be wrong, but I don't imagine this stuff is on Spotify. Also I'm not sure what file quality they offer, but again, maybe it's improved over the years.

Either way, just sad it's not easy to do what seems the simplest and what would be the most popular: manage your own music easily, just as I've done all my life.