Help buying a direct-drive turntable (Not a DJ)

[CaptSnuffy]

Hello Head-Fi!

My parents both have modest record collections collecting dust in a cabinet in our living room. They have wanted a turntable for a long time, but for some reason never have gotten around to actually buying one. Mainly, I think his is because they don't really know which turntable they should buy... and I don't either which is which is why I'm here to get some assistance and then eventually buy a turntable as their Christmas gift.

As you can see from the thread title, it needs to be a direct-drive turntable. From what I've gathered, direct-drive is more for DJs and belt-drive offers superior sound quality. However, my mother despises belt-drive turntables. We once had a turntable as part of a complete stereo system, but my mother threw away everything from that except the CD player/Tape deck component and the speakers. The turntable was was in perfect working shape (

) but the belt snapped and my mother said that she used to have to replace it all the time, and that and it's a huge hassle to own a belt-drive, and that direct drive are "where it's at". So we've been turntable-less for around a decade.

Last christmas I ripped one of my mom's favorites (out-of-print charlie parker) to a cd using my laptop and the local high schools turntable, and she loved it. Now that I have some money from the summer, I'd like to correct this great misfortune and give them a chance to rediscover all of their music.

Any help you can offer will be greatly appreciated.

Some things to keep in mind:
1. I'm in college, so it shouldn't cost an arm and a leg.

2. I'm in college, and bringing a turntable back home on a train would be a pain, so I'd like to be able to buy it online or locally when I get home (to New York).

3. Even if I brought home a turntable that defied all my mother's ideas about belt-drives, she will still hate it. And anyway...

4. My parents aren't exactly picky about audio fidelity. My mom uses iBuds with the iPod I got her, and my dad uses the awful built in speakers on the new Samsung TV we got him. The speakers they own aren't anything special, and so the turntable really doesn't need to be.

Thank you!

 

[ssportclay]

The Technics 1200/1210 MK2 is really the only choice if you want to buy a new DD turntable. You don't want to install a DJ spherical cartridge though. Get a Stanton 681 EEE or Denon DL110 and you will be in good shape to start with.

 

[CaptSnuffy]

From some quick research online these are solid choices, but at $400+ for the TT and around $100 for the cartridge, it seems awfully pricey. Are these suggestions considered high-end, and if so what would you suggest in a lower price-range? I'm would spend this much if it was the only viable quality product available, but I see many other TTs for less money, and I don't have much insight into where the price difference manifests itself. For people like my parents, who don't care about audio quality much, I would rather buy a cheaper model than one that sounds amazing, but still get one that is still solidly built and won't die in a few years. I suppose that another way to look at it is that buying a quality product will ensure it lasts for a long time. Any advice?

 

[memepool]

For a new direct drive deck these days Technics is the market leader and actually very good value for money. Denon also make a few nice direct drives bu these are more expensive.

There are plenty of cheaper knock offs by Stanton, Numark, Sony and Audio Technica but don't be fooled by the looks as these aren't anywhere near the same quality although they arn't even a whole lot cheaper. Then there are more specialised DJ focused decks from Vestax but these are generally the same price or more.

Anything under 500USD these days for a turntable is absolute entry level. You can get some decent belt drives from Rega, Goldring, NAD, Pro-Ject, Music Hall etc for around 350 upwards but you've already discounted these.

 

[Geoff Rymer]

I'm not sure what the deal was with your mum's previous table. I've never had any issues with belts snapping. What sort of TT was it? I can't help feeling you're writing off some good contenders, whilst modern (and in my experience, not so modern) belt drive turntables have very few issues.

I'd suggest if you must have a DD, and don't want to pony up for an SL1200, then going vintage and checking out memepool's low budget vinyl thread is the best idea.

 

[Michgelsen]

There is another option. Many 'OEM' alternatives to the SL1200 exist, for much less. They are in fact all the same turntable internally (not the same as the SL1200), but with other faceplates, and apparently easily compete or actually do better than an SL1200 (motorwise, very fast start/stop etc.). These are meant for DJs though, but are loved because they are solid direct-drive turntables and cheaper than the SL1200. Examples of this are the Akiyama DJ-4000 Acura, the Reloop RP-6000, SynQ XTRM-1, the American Audio HTD 4.5, but there are probably more. You should look into it.

 

[ssportclay]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geoff Rymer /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm not sure what the deal was with your mum's previous table. I've never had any issues with belts snapping. What sort of TT was it? I can't help feeling you're writing off some good contenders, whilst modern (and in my experience, not so modern) belt drive turntables have very few issues. I'd suggest if you must have a DD, and don't want to pony up for an SL1200, then going vintage and checking out memepool's low budget vinyl thread is the best idea.

I can easily understand why some one would want a direct drive turntable over a belt drive just for the user friendliness advantage. There is nothing wrong with the way a well made belt drive table can sound but they are a fairly simple and crude contraption compared to the higher Tech. and faster to use DD. I enjoy running a Technics 1200 much more than my Thorens TD160 that I spent my youth with and the Technics also sounds much better. The best solution for a small budget would be to look for a used 1200 MK2. One should be easy to find since they made about a zillion of them. The problem is to find one that was loved and well cared for because a lot of them had the crap run out of them. Other models to look for are the 1600 MK2, 1700 MK2, and 1800 MK2. These models were marketed more toward the home consumer and should be in generally better condition.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michgelsen /img/forum/go_quote.gif Many 'OEM' alternatives to the SL1200 exist, for much less. They are in fact all the same turntable internally (not the same as the SL1200)

In over 20 years of DJ'ing I've yet to see any cheap lookalikes to the Technics SL1200 which are anywhere near as good. In fact the way that they look exactly the same is enough to set off major alarm bells.

The Technics is good because it's very well designed and built but it's far from being perfect and in many respects, notably the tonearm, it's dated and easily bettered by more modern belt drives.

What makes the SL1200 still worthy of audiophile usage is the construction. It's constrained layer damped moulding is the bit which none of these wannabe Technics DJ decks have copied, because it's an expensive carefully contrived design honed over many years in the 1970s, when Technics took on the pro market.

Yes no doubt you will find the direct drive motor or a close copy in many other decks but without the careful plinth design this is usually more of a hindrance to good sound than anything else. Back in the day the ubiquitous Matsu (Technics) motor was found in decks as diverse as Hitachi to Marantz and ADC but few of these could usually hold a candle to the SL1200.

What was true then is doubley so today as all these SL1200 copyists know that most young kids who want to get into DJ'ing are only looking at the likeness of the overall design and marketing of things like motor torque and quartz lock which allows you to beat match and scratch etc...

In a bedroom DJ system they hope you will not notice too much the appalling mechanical and acoustic feedback that a poorly implemented lightweight direct drive chassis will bring to the party. This is why you never see junk like this in club installations as you just couldn't amplify it on the end of a 100k rig.

If any of these idiots making SL1200 lookalikes actually had the slightest clue about improving the design then they would address the weaknesses of the original and improve upon them rather than just making skindeep clones. The only company which has tried to do this is Vestax and they are really working towards different ends, ie to make something akin to a musical instrument for specific types of music like Hip-hop.

Basically the SL-1200 is a very well contrived deck which will impress with it's solidity and ease of use compared to a modern 500USD beltdrive. It's not the last word in sound quality at the price by any means but can be easily upgraded with a more modern tonearm down the road should you want to.
Fitted with a good old fashioned Denon DL110 cart it will certainly get the toes tapping and bring a smile to the face of anyone wanting to resurrect an old record collection.

 

[Golden Ears]

I'd say go for a music hall turntable.. unless you intend to DJ. If you are dead set on Direct drive.. then this would be a better choice.

Mitsubishi LT-30 you could find one for about $200 on ebay it has a decent linear tracking arm. I bought mine for college use so any average Joe drunken clod could could not lop off the diamond on my stylus. works great with a dynavector Ruby cartridge.

I've owned several 1200 mk II's and the Mitsubishi LT-30 - the Mitsubishi blew them away.

If you are dead set on a Technics 1200....

Buy from here...

http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/m1200.htm

at least the platter will be centered... and get the feet...

But the Mitsubishi is nice, cheap, and fully automatic...it even senses 45 rpms and puts the stylus in the right place.

Better sound can be had from higher quality belt drive tables.... like a Goldmund- likely out of your range and out of whack with the rest of your system.. the Mitsubishi is a nice place to start..and even ok to end up there.

 

[CaptSnuffy]

First off, I apologize for not responding so soon, but the evil of finals are upon me. Good news is, I've done some reading and looked up prices everywhere. I found a very well priced technics 1200 mk2 on craigslist that was "Only used for capturing audio, not scratching". It's $350, and has a grado stylus. Since the stylus was replaced, does that mean I should replace the cartridge, or is it fine how it is? If you think I should, I would. It's fairly close to where I live, and the seller says I can pick it up on monday. I'm willing to go ahead with this, unless there are any strong objections from you guys. Thoughts?

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptSnuffy /img/forum/go_quote.gif First off, I apologize for not responding so soon, but the evil of finals are upon me. Good news is, I've done some reading and looked up prices everywhere. I found a very well priced technics 1200 mk2 on craigslist that was "Only used for capturing audio, not scratching". It's $350, and has a grado stylus. Since the stylus was replaced, does that mean I should replace the cartridge, or is it fine how it is? If you think I should, I would. It's fairly close to where I live, and the seller says I can pick it up on monday. I'm willing to go ahead with this, unless there are any strong objections from you guys. Thoughts?

Sounds like a winner. I'd replace the stylus as a matter of course especially with a cheaper cart as it's just not worth the risk of potentially damaging your records.

 

[CaptSnuffy]

I'm still on track to buy the tt, but i've realized that my parents' receiver doesn't have a phono input. This means I have to buy a phono preamp, right? Any recommendations for (a cheap) one?

 

[StanleyB1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptSnuffy /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have to buy a phono preamp, right? Any recommendations for (a cheap) one?

Out of the ones I have tried, I reckon the TC-750LC that Phonopreamp sells in the US is a real bargain for the price. The more expensive TC-760LC can also handle moving coil, but the sound output is soft and flat on my TT set up. I hear the Cambridge is also good, and the NAD NPP series are equally highly rated for their price.

But stay away from the cheap ones on eBay that have the mainslead going directly into the phono preamp casing. I opened and even tried a few and most are dangerous in their wiring. I would be more scared of getting electrocuted by one of those the moment I touched my turntable tone arm, than being happy with their low price.

 

[ssportclay]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptSnuffy /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm still on track to buy the tt, but i've realized that my parents' receiver doesn't have a phono input. This means I have to buy a phono preamp, right? Any recommendations for (a cheap) one?

The best inexpensive phono preamp on the market in the battery powered Hagerman Bugle which can be ordered in kit form or prebuilt. Go with the Cambridge Audio 640P if you want a unit that plugs into the wall. Both units are better than any that you are likely to find in a receiver.

 

[CaptSnuffy]

I definitely would like one that is mains-powered. Looking at these options, the ones from Phonopreamps.com seem like a good way to go, and they are very affordable. 640P from Cambridge Audio has some extremely positive reviews, but is higher priced. The NAD PP-2 and PP-3 both seem like solid products, and I bet my mom would love the PP-3's built-in ADC with USB-out so she can rip her vinyl for use with her iPod (I wonder how easy it is to use, though).

I think I need to do more research.

Update: I've done some more research. I've seen some negative comments posted by consumers about the Phonopreamps.com products, but no professional reviews yet. I've been unable to find any reviews of the NAD PP-3, but the PP-2 has very good reviews. The 640P has what are probably the best reviews of the lot. I'm thinking I want to go for a phono stage with support for both MM and MC carts, just in case we want to upgrade in the future.

Is this a good price on the 640P if I buy a refurb?
http://www.independentaudiovideo.com...temid=1004652#