[teknojack66]

Just a brief note to say thank you to this great community. I have just pulled the trigger on the Audio-Technica AT-PHA50BT Bluetooth receiver/headphone amp. Have stubbornly resisted BT for all these years--for many reasons (mainly because I am a stubborn guy) but also I just couldn't find the set of Bluetooth headphones that I really wanted. What I DID (finally) think would be great, would be to use my lovely open-back Philips SHP9500s wirelessly.

So, after a very deep-dive into the kind of obsessive-compulsive "research" that we Music Lover Old Guys specialize in (and that drives my family a bit nuts) I finally pulled the trigger on a brand-new unit on Ebay for $82 delivered within 3 days. So, I'm happy and excited and relieved.

Just wanted to say hi. I'm a native New Yorker who was blessed to live and work in the UK from 1986-1998, and have friends from all over the world, but especially the UK, Germany, Slovenia, Denmark, and Brazil.

And also, if any of you knows of a fun, involving set of Open Back Circumaurals, or IEMS's from China that would offer great value and that elusive "fun", I would be grateful. I listen to alot of Ambient music such as Boards of Canada, Biblio, DJ Krush, along with rock/indy music such as QOTSA, Led Zeppelin, Broken Social Scene, Band of Horses and the like. I am not as up as I would like to be on some of the so-called Chi-Fi brands (KZ intrigue me, for example) Phones priced anywhere from USD $15 (I only say this because my Xiaomi Pistons have stood me very well) to , I don't know, USD $75. No need for Bluetooth because as long as there's a 3.5 cable to plug into the AT-PHA50BT, I'm golden.

Thanks in advance, and cheers to all.

Tek

 

[obobskivich]

Welcome to Head-Fi!

As far as the headphones thing - while not exactly a "Chi-Fi" brand, have you considered Koss? Like the KTX Pro or R/80 (or PRO4/AA or MV1 if you really want to push on your budget)? Or Grado with the SR-60 or SR-80? Believe it or not some of these are made in the USA (Grado are actually made in NY). Not all are open-backed, but honestly apart from discussion about isolation or leakage, I'm disinclined to get into a big fit over the distinction as some sort of absolute, generalizable quality that can inform how a headphone will sound.

 

[teknojack66]

Welcome to Head-Fi!

As far as the headphones thing - while not exactly a "Chi-Fi" brand, have you considered Koss? Like the KTX Pro or R/80 (or PRO4/AA or MV1 if you really want to push on your budget)? Or Grado with the SR-60 or SR-80? Believe it or not some of these are made in the USA (Grado are actually made in NY). Not all are open-backed, but honestly apart from discussion about isolation or leakage, I'm disinclined to get into a big fit over the distinction as some sort of absolute, generalizable quality that can inform how a headphone will sound.

I absolutely will check out both Grado & Koss. Used to have a Grado cartridge on my turntable, and wore the hell out of a Koss Porta-Pro (paired with my portable MiniDisc which I also beat into the ground) back in the mid-late 90's.

Was asking about Chinese brands as I know very little first-hand except for my Pistons. Actually, one of the reasons I bought my ZTE Axon 7 was its strong audio performance.

Thanks for the quick feedback. Let me ask you one more thing--what would you recommend as far as music players/EQ apps for Android and Windows? I have a little Agptek MP3 player which basically replaced my old Sandisk Clip, but I could use some advise on Windows gear: do I need a better Bluetooth dongle? Is there something that works better than VLC and/or MediaMonkey for playing and organizing my digital music? I have heard great things about Viper for Android but I believe my phone must be rooted to use that? What do you use for all this?

I used to be a real Hi-Fi guy back in the 20th century, but feel like I need to play catch-up. I love music so much, have played it (bass) almost my whole life, and just recently have gotten the bug again. Sorry for rambling, Thank you in advance, and hopefully you can help guide me.

Best,

Tek

 

[obobskivich]

I absolutely will check out both Grado & Koss. Used to have a Grado cartridge on my turntable, and wore the hell out of a Koss Porta-Pro (paired with my portable MiniDisc which I also beat into the ground) back in the mid-late 90's.

The Porta-Pro is actually still in production! I was trying to think of "other Koss headphones" and that one eluded me however...

At $15 the KTX-Pro are kind of a knockout, but honestly I'd say "spend more" if this is something you're going to use with any regularity - my biggest gripe with the KTX Pro was the flimsy build and resulting funky fit. Something like the DJ/100 is a lot more solid headphone, and sounds better too. Frankly I think both Koss and Grado make cans that'd do great with your listening tastes, but they do make fairly different sounding headphones. Fortunately, none of their "entry to mid range" models are horrifically expensive, so you could realistically try both if you so desired.

Was asking about Chinese brands as I know very little first-hand except for my Pistons. Actually, one of the reasons I bought my ZTE Axon 7 was its strong audio performance.

Honestly I've never really gotten into IEMs or other in-ears, and from what I read that's really where Chi-Fi has taken off. Not sure what to tell you as a result.

Thanks for the quick feedback. Let me ask you one more thing--what would you recommend as far as music players/EQ apps for Android and Windows? I have a little Agptek MP3 player which basically replaced my old Sandisk Clip, but I could use some advise on Windows gear: do I need a better Bluetooth dongle? Is there something that works better than VLC and/or MediaMonkey for playing and organizing my digital music? I have heard great things about Viper for Android but I believe my phone must be rooted to use that? What do you use for all this?

I don't do much of anything with mobile devices - I bought a Sony Walkman back around 2009 and haven't had any inclination to upgrade or mess with it (and anymore it spends its life in a drawer). So I don't really have any good advice on the Android front - I'm not sure I've ever plugged headphones into a mobile phone to be quite honest.

On the PC side, I would say "wars have been fought over those kinds of questions" - there's as many opinions as there are stars in the sky when it comes to doing PC audio. Personally I come down on the side of convenience and "good enough" quality (meaning I have no interest in spending a thousand hours fighting for "bit perfect" or other extremes) - sure I rip my CDs to lossless with EAC, but I don't bother with esoteric media players and never-ending plugin configuration and all that. VLC is fine for playback but it doesn't have much in the way of library support, so that'd be a no-go for regular use IMHO. Anymore I'm just happy with Windows Media Player, but Foobar2000 is also a popular choice (and free), and there's other options beyond that if you're unhappy with Foobar or WMP, such as: iTunes, Winamp, JRiver, Amarok, etc. Some are paid some are not. IME/IMHO there's not much to be argued about with media players in terms of sound quality (some would disagree, some would disagree vehemently) - bigger arguments are to be made for UI/functionality, codec support, and how well they rip and/or tag content. If you rip with EAC that removes one big question from the board, and codec support is pretty standardized these days (and there's easily had freeware packages that will give you access to whatever esoteric containers you like - this is more commonly needed with video than audio though), so that takes that off the board too, and leaves basically UI/functionality as a big determinant. If you have something that you like the workflow with, stick with it.

Now as far as the audio from the PC itself - Bluetooth isn't really the greatest thing for audio due to the amount of compression it requires. I'm not sure a different dongle will improve sound quality, but it may improve connection stability or range. The bigger places to futz around here are with the actual output hardware for the PC - while integrated audio (at least in some areas) has made big strides, it's still hard to beat a quality soundcard (be it internal or external), and there's so many options out there these days (especially when you get into USB-based audio). From there its off to your gear via analog ICs, and all of the "more typical" audiophile discussions can come into focus - cable quality, power, amplifiers, etc etc. Basically I'd say if you want to do PC listening on headphones in a really "hi fi" way you should probably look into the output hardware on your PC (and potentially upgrading it) as the link between the PC (and your digital files) and the amplifier driving your headphones.

Something else that may or may not be obvious: the quality of the files themselves is a really big deal. What I'm saying here is three-fold:
- Quality rips matter, if you're starting with CDs or similar. I'd go straight to lossless these days, given how cheap storage is. That isn't to say quality lossy encodes are bad, but really storage is so cheap anymore that it's just not worth arguing about the 4:1 space saving or whatever when you can get a 1TB hard drive for like $40-50 to your door. EAC is a great utility and very easy to use (and its free).
- How the music is recorded/mastered/etc is also important. "Digital" isn't a cure-all, and the loudness wars are still in full swing for some producers. So it may be the case that whatever you want to listen to just isn't available in a "high quality" way as a result.
- Digital streaming services are not created equal, and some of them are frankly pretty bad. Like audible compression ringing bad. Sure there's a huge convenience factor, but frankly with a lot of digital streaming services, despite all their bluster about "HD this" and "HD that" its really similar to the differences between HD broadcast cable and Blu-ray - sure they're both 1080p, but one of them is actually sending out the proper surround sound mix and doesn't even know what "macroblocking" means... (Speaking of "hi rez" you might also find this useful: https://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html)

Personally I'm still of the mind that if I really like an album and want to own it, I'll go buy the CD. In many cases its cheaper than buying the lossy download, and I can rip it myself (which is quick and easy), and still have the CD for playback on my equipment if I should ever want it.

 

[teknojack66]

Woah. Lots to think about. We are both coming from a very similar mindset. And it's almost time for this weekend Lyft driver to catch some Z's. I'm going to read that hi-rez article for sure. And don't get me started (only cuz it's late) on the Loudness Wars and the oftentimes awful and dispiriting sameness of infinitely quantized Protooled to within an inch of it's life, looped and doubled and globally effected, gated snared and God Help Us AUTO ****ING TUNED as the dead bluesmen and women, Big Bands and virtuosos, 27 year old sacrifices ("members of that stupid club" ) lyricists and mods and rockers and sneering punks and preening sopranos all grimacing in their graves...and spinning, spinning, spinning to the chopped and channelled 4/4, always four on the ****ing floor, mercilessly minimally musical moronic Beat that goes on and on. Yeah, Elvis (and Ella and Caetano and Wolfgang) have well and truly Left The Building. Leaving us to our own (always digital) devices.

Damn, I ranted.

 

[obobskivich]

Damn, I ranted.

And how!

My biggest point is just that provenance and source quality are going to be a "big deal" especially as you move into higher fidelity headphones, where detail retrieval and such tend to be unmatched (I'm not a big speaker guy, but I've heard some pretty jazzy speaker setups, both studio and audiophile, and frankly don't think I've ever heard a speaker system that can match some headphones for detail - I think isolation/acoustics is probably a part of this (if you go read Bob Katz's newest article on InnerFidelity (worth it, here: https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/katzs-corner-episode-17-perfecting-perfection) he talks about his mastering system, which just from the description and measurements would probably be where you'd have to go with speakers to really get to headphone-level detail extraction, but I'm guessing we don't want to know what Mr Katz has spent for that system...)). Frankly there's plenty of albums or content that sounds just fine on my living room hi-fi or in the car or whatever, but when brought to fancier headphones just falls apart (and Katz talks about that too - I'm not sure if it's that my headphones are closer to his "more accurate" thing or if it's that I'm more attuned to them and expect things to sound a certain kind of "wrong" at this point). Sure you should worry about nice gear from end to end, but after a point you're into diminishing returns, especially if you're listening to junk (and don't take this as a stab at any music preferences - just because Twinkees and Pizza Hut aren't good for you doesn't mean they don't taste good, and the same can apply to music too ).

 

[teknojack66]

Well, I am re-entering the world of actively listening to music (ie spending time consciously evaluating/exploring/taking notice of/being moved by it) because, frankly, I missed it. And, for sure, high quality headphones are the best music delivery vehicle around, with the lowest barrier to entry. As you mention, they remove a host of expensive and highly variable elements.

What would you consider to be a cost effective headphone set-up, including all the elements from the player to any amplification / DAC, to the headphones themselves. Assuming best case lossless
files. What would someone like me need to get in order to have a HiFi experience...in your subjective opinion?

 

[obobskivich]

Well, I am re-entering the world of actively listening to music (ie spending time consciously evaluating/exploring/taking notice of/being moved by it) because, frankly, I missed it. And, for sure, high quality headphones are the best music delivery vehicle around, with the lowest barrier to entry. As you mention, they remove a host of expensive and highly variable elements.

I'd agree with this - its just easier to live with imho. Now, that said, some folks just really prefer speakers, and will never find headphones to be "right" and that's cool too.

What would you consider to be a cost effective headphone set-up, including all the elements from the player to any amplification / DAC, to the headphones themselves. Assuming best case lossless
files. What would someone like me need to get in order to have a HiFi experience...in your subjective opinion?

That's a really big question, and the toughest parts are two-fold: "a hifi experience" is by itself potentially a loaded qualifier, and its hard to tell you what you'll "like" especially if you don't have a big frame of reference. There's *tons* of options out there in the wide world of headphones, and many of them sound very good, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're your ticket to audio nirvana.

With all of that said, the easiest "out of the box" or "one and done" solution I can think of would be the Koss ESP/950 - they include their own amp and most of the cables you'll probably require, and sound quite frankly excellent (I wrote a comparison of them against the Grado RS-1, here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/618153/battle-of-the-american-titans - linking to save re-writing more than anything; I don't have any issues suggesting the RS-1 either btw). As far as what to plug them into, IME differences between DACs aren't as night and day, life changing, angels-in-your-ears, etc as some advertisements would make out, and frankly once you hit "good enough" (I know, such precise, so detail, much wow!) you're more looking at subtle differences or functional/compatibility differences rather than big, huge, sonic improvements. In practical terms this may be achievable with hardware you already have (e.g. a computer or a CD player), or it may not. Now you might be wondering "okay, but your profile lists headphones above the ESP/950, and you also mentioned the RS-1, and on and on" - yep. Like I said - there's lots of good options that will all sound really good, but ultimately your own preference will dictate which is "better" for you, but that doesn't explicitly mean a given headphone is "absolutely better" than the other. If that makes sense.

If you wanted to look at dynamic cans, I think the Fostex TH-900 are really hard to fault for any specific thing - recently in another thread I described them as being "9/10 in basically every category" and that's a big reason I'd suggest them. They don't really do anything "wrong" and don't really have any trouble with whatever you ask of them. But then again maybe your ears or tastes just don't "jive" with that, and you're left wanting something different - that's where its hard to say/discuss if you have limited frame of reference (and yeah, I know, this is a lot like when McCoy asks Spock about his thoughts on death and is told he'd have to die before they can have the conversation - its unfair and its one-sided; I'm not trying to be a "gatekeeper" I just am not aware of a better way to get at this knowledge than experience).

Okay, so what about the third option where you go "wow he gave me 3-ish suggestions, lets go look'em up!" and you plug in one of them and go "WOW THAT'S EXPENSIVE!!" - yeah, there is that. So what about something that isn't moho-expensive? I'd probably say the Sennheiser HD 600. They have similar tonality to the ESP/950 (but are "lesser" in most regards - this isn't like "they're 10% of the performance" but more like "the ESP/950 give you that last 10-15%"), are very comfortable, handle a wide range of genres pretty well, etc.

I would add that I wouldn't consider any of these suggestions absolute - really you won't know until you know (i.e. by listening to various cans).

As far as the amp/DAC as a separate discussion: what are you starting out with, and what are you hoping to source from? Generally I'd say DACs need to be considered seriously in terms of connectivity and compatibility, as well as in terms of performance, and amps in terms of compatibility (with whatever headphone you want) and build quality, as well as sonics. I know, these are maybe "not important because they aren't the sound" qualities, but IME having gear that doesn't feel/work nice or hook up to what you want is just a bummer.

 

[Cruelhand Luke]

As far as chi-fi open backed headphones under $75? You already have the 9500s,& I think the general consensus is there isn't much better for open backed sub $100 better than those....but if you want to try something that sounds possibly comparable, but different, the Superlux HD668B is pretty highly spoken of. Also, have you tried different pads on the 9500s? I HIGHLY recommend swapping the pads. There are a lot of options for less than $20, so it's not a big loss if you don't care for the sound.

 

[teknojack66]

As far as chi-fi open backed headphones under $75? You already have the 9500s,& I think the general consensus is there isn't much better for open backed sub $100 better than those....but if you want to try something that sounds possibly comparable, but different, the Superlux HD668B is pretty highly spoken of. Also, have you tried different pads on the 9500s? I HIGHLY recommend swapping the pads. There are a lot of options for less than $20, so it's not a big loss if you don't care for the sound.

Hey Cruelhand Luke,

Awesome handle! So, I've been thinking about it, and have decided that it makes sense for my next purchase NOT to double up on open back, but to figure out what purchase will give me best bang for buck for USD $50-$125, which means either some closed back cans: the Oneodio adapter-free monitors which are rebranded Yenona Studio Pros are on crazy sale on Amazon for $30, and/or a decent headphone amp or DAP. I just ordered an AT-PHA50BT Bluetooth receiver/amp but I'm buying that primarily to be able to take my 9500's out and about as wireless cans..though at 50ma per channel it's being bought more for the Bluetooth than the amp. On the DAP front, I use a little AGPtEK MS 20 which is Spartan but does the job.

So any suggestions appreciated.
Note to obobskivich: the Sennheisers are on my radar--and the Grado/Fostex just remind me that families are an expensive hobby! Altho TBH the Sens are more realistic as a Christmas gift to myself than something I buy now. I hope to one of these days fully commit as it were and put my money where my mouth is.

 

[Cruelhand Luke]

You want to come over and drink some of my coffee and tell me that's good too? Man, I know I have an awesome handle, you don't have to tell me!
I just got a set of Akai 50Xs (Marantz/ISK/Lyxpro clone) and paired with my Fiio A3 and ZTE Axon it is incredibly fun to listen to. In terms of sound, it is at the opposite end of the spectrum from the 9500s. It has deep satisfying bass, it's a warm close kind of sound, in a very enjoyable way. You lose a lot of the detail that is present in the 9500s, but the trade off is that you are too busy playing your air bass to notice.

 

[Cruelhand Luke]

I don't have any personal experience with the Yenonas, I do have a vague memory that there are two versions and the first version had an issue with a loose headphone jack or something...I'd check to make sure the $30.00 ones are the ones you really want.

 

[teknojack66]

I don't have any personal experience with the Yenonas, I do have a vague memory that there are two versions and the first version had an issue with a loose headphone jack or something...I'd check to make sure the $30.00 ones are the ones you really want.

Hey,

I love my Axon 7 too. I'm gonna find the can you speak of on Amazon and maybe buy. Also: any Bluetooth headphones that you can recommend? That hard boiled egg scene in CHL ...woah

 

[Trojacked]

Just a brief note to say thank you to this great community. I have just pulled the trigger on the Audio-Technica AT-PHA50BT Bluetooth receiver/headphone amp. Have stubbornly resisted BT for all these years--for many reasons (mainly because I am a stubborn guy) but also I just couldn't find the set of Bluetooth headphones that I really wanted. What I DID (finally) think would be great, would be to use my lovely open-back Philips SHP9500s wirelessly.

So, after a very deep-dive into the kind of obsessive-compulsive "research" that we Music Lover Old Guys specialize in (and that drives my family a bit nuts) I finally pulled the trigger on a brand-new unit on Ebay for $82 delivered within 3 days. So, I'm happy and excited and relieved.

Just wanted to say hi. I'm a native New Yorker who was blessed to live and work in the UK from 1986-1998, and have friends from all over the world, but especially the UK, Germany, Slovenia, Denmark, and Brazil.

And also, if any of you knows of a fun, involving set of Open Back Circumaurals, or IEMS's from China that would offer great value and that elusive "fun", I would be grateful. I listen to alot of Ambient music such as Boards of Canada, Biblio, DJ Krush, along with rock/indy music such as QOTSA, Led Zeppelin, Broken Social Scene, Band of Horses and the like. I am not as up as I would like to be on some of the so-called Chi-Fi brands (KZ intrigue me, for example) Phones priced anywhere from USD $15 (I only say this because my Xiaomi Pistons have stood me very well) to , I don't know, USD $75. No need for Bluetooth because as long as there's a 3.5 cable to plug into the AT-PHA50BT, I'm golden.

Thanks in advance, and cheers to all.

Tek

Firstly, Welcome to the community!

Secondly, as far as "fun" chinese IEM's go, I'd recommend the KZ ZS5's, they pack four drivers and consist of a phenomenal price to quality ratio. However if you are looking for a more "punchier" IEM go for the QKZ DM300.

 

[Cruelhand Luke]

Hey,

I love my Axon 7 too. I'm gonna find the can you speak of on Amazon and maybe buy. Also: any Bluetooth headphones that you can recommend? That hard boiled egg scene in CHL ...

The Akai have been mentioned in this thread: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chinese-asian-brand-info-thread-on-or-over-ear-headphones.822184/

there are multiple variants: Marantz, ISK, Freeboss, Lyxpro, Akai ....I think I am forgetting at least one. I would get whichever one is the least expensive because they are all the same EXCEPT for one thing, the pads on the Akai aren't the best, so unless they are super cheap, or you like the way they look more, I would get one of the others. I pulled the trigger on mine because they were only $18.00 and I just went ahead and ordered an extra set of pads with it.
IF you want something complimentary/different than your 9500s these are kind of opposite in the way it presents sound...it's more of a dark, weighty, warm enveloping kind of sound, whereas the 9500s are almost ethereal and light by comparison