[FrederikS|TPU]

El Duderino thanks for adding so much information to this thread!
Great to see you taking the time to find relevant examples. Wouldn't you say that the difference between MALL and PLL is based on the musicians having "bad" listening habits in terms of volume? Or am I completely off here?

Cool_Torpedo and Febs completely right in this manner. It is a matter of SPL not the distance between you and the noise emitter.

 

[shigzeo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Duderino /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hi Shigzeo, My apologies if you felt belittled but I was simply pointing out the misinformation in your posts. It is very true that you, of course, do not have to believe a word that I am saying. You wanted some scientific rebuffs to your statements. Below is an abstract taken from PubMed--an online database of peer-reviewed medical literature that those of us who prefer scientific evidence rather than anecdotal nonsense often use as a resource. I read the full article using institutional access but cannot post it here due to copyright issues. Nevertheless, the abstract, I believe, sufficiently proves, using scientific methodology, that your above quoted comment about "air" between the listener and the music source and the resulting ability to "feel" sound (suppressing a grin here) somehow translates to lower listening volumes than with an IEM. Please read at your convenience. I have made a few comments afterwards to try and help make it more understandable if necessary. "Preferred and minimum acceptable listening levels for musicians while using floor and in-ear monitors.Federman J, Ricketts T. Vanderbilt University Medical Center, Department of Hearing and Speech Sciences, Medical Center East, South Tower, 1215-21st Avenue South, Room 8310, Nashville, TN 37232, USA. PURPOSE: This study examined the impact that changing on-stage music and crowd noise levels during musical performance had on preferred listening levels (PLLs) and minimum acceptable listening levels (MALLs) across both floor and in-ear monitors. METHOD: Participants for this study were 23- to 48-year-old musicians, with and without hearing loss, who had 10 years of musical training or comparable professional experience. For this study, PLLs and MALLs were established for the musician's own voice, whereas the levels of other onstage musical signals were systematically varied. PLLs for in-ear monitors were found at significantly lower levels than for floor monitors (approximately 0.6 dB). RESULTS: PLLs for in-ear monitors were found at significantly lower levels than for floor monitors (approximately 0.6 dB). However, despite large spectral differences, PLLs across the 2 monitor types were small enough that the same recommended exposure time would be advocated based on National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health and Occupational Safety and Health Administration recommendations. MALL data also indicated significantly lower levels (approximately 6.0 dB) when musicians were using in-ear monitors in comparison to floor monitors. CONCLUSION: The much larger difference suggests that musicians' risk of noise exposure may be reduced by the use of in-ear monitors. However, given the similar PLL results and known monitor output levels, proper counseling would likely be required before this potential advantage would be realized." So, here we have musicians using floor monitors which I hope satisfies your requirement for separation between listener and source by "air" vs. musicians in the same environment using IEMs rather than floor monitors. The preferred listening level and minimum acceptable listening levels were assessed in each group. In a nutshell, musicians "turned the volume down" on IEMs relative to floor monitors by about 0.6 dB. Now this reduction in preferred listening level is not enough to change the recommended noise exposure time in IEMs vs. floor monitors due to the, admittedly, small reduction. However, what is telling, and what people on this forum have been getting at is that safe IEM listening habits dictate using the minimum volume that is acceptable. You will see from the results that when using this parameter, musicians used significantly lower (by 6.0 dB!) listening levels when utilizing IEMs vs. floor monitors. This pretty much suggests that despite not being able to "feel" the sound (your words, not mine) with IEMs, listening levels are lower than in a situation where you are separated from the source by "air" (again, your words) and can presumably "feel" the sound. Coupled with Febs informational link indicating that users of the ER6i IEM consistently listened at lower volumes, I feel your persisting argument that somehow the nature of an IEM makes us listen to it at higher volumes is moot. I could, potentially, go all day with this and provide you with article after article dissecting each of your points but I think I may go see some otology patients instead. And, by the way, there is a significant difference between an otolaryngologist and our esteemed colleagues in audiology. Please take this post as informative and not hostile as it is not intended to be at all. Regards, El Duderino

indeed that is more along the lines of rebuff that i was hoping for. my argument however still is about the fact that we do probably listen too loudly to begin with. iems or not. the safe listening level is probably too loud.

still, headphones, iems etc are a very new practice that stretches not even properly 60 years for headphones and 15 or so for iems. i have doubts that research is yet complete about how our ears should function in a world that has increasing number of people with hearing loss in youth.

my habits are never listen more than volume on half (with 75ohm resistor with my 16ohm canals) on ipod nano 3g and a little below that with anything else really.

 

[El Duderino]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrederikS|TPU /img/forum/go_quote.gif El Duderino thanks for adding so much information to this thread! Great to see you taking the time to find relevant examples. Wouldn't you say that the difference between MALL and PLL is based on the musicians having "bad" listening habits in terms of volume? Or am I completely off here? Cool_Torpedo and Febs completely right in this manner. It is a matter of SPL not the distance between you and the noise emitter.

Thank you FrederikS.

I would agree with you that the difference between MALL and PLL is largely based on listening habits. Based on the definition, MALL should be enough to accurately monitor the music and there should be no need to further increase volume. However, there are several individual reasons as to why the volume is increased beyond MALL to reach the PLL. Investigating which of these factors are most important would make for an interesting study that has not been done yet!

El Duderino

 

[scompton]

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Duderino /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thank you FrederikS. I would agree with you that the difference between MALL and PLL is largely based on listening habits. Based on the definition, MALL should be enough to accurately monitor the music and there should be no need to further increase volume. However, there are several individual reasons as to why the volume is increased beyond MALL to reach the PLL. Investigating which of these factors are most important would make for an interesting study that has not been done yet! El Duderino

Some music is more engaging when played louder. I make a conscious effort not to turn up music, even in noisy environments. I'm lucky I didn't damage my hearing in my 20s. I know I went to a few arena concerts back in the 80s that left my ears ringing even the next day. Fortunately, I didn't go to many of them.

I stopped going to rock concerts because they're too loud. I recently bought some Ety ER20 ear plugs so I can go to some rock concerts, but nothing has come up since I bought them that I want to see.

 

[Aaron5604]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scompton /img/forum/go_quote.gif Some music is more engaging when played louder. I make a conscious effort not to turn up music, even in noisy environments. I'm lucky I didn't damage my hearing in my 20s. I know I went to a few arena concerts back in the 80s that left my ears ringing even the next day.

That's what leaves me completely confused, despite the amount of math done. I'm still mostly in my young 20's, but as a kid, and a teen growing up, I don't think I even knew ear plugs existed. Mowing lawns as a service, countless amount of sporting events, a few concerts, car audio, falling to sleep w/ music playing loud, warehouse work at a min. of 8 hrs. a day, etc... And, according to every doctor, my hearing is still flawless?

 

[nickdawg]

Gotta sort through the BS. I read another thread where the OP said a doctor told him to never put anything in his ears, including IEMs b/c they damage the ear/hearing.

I don't think IEMs themselves damage hearing. They are much safer than the regular earbuds that sit on the outside of the ear, since those have to bu turned to unsafe levels to drown background noise. The result is dangerously loud sound blasting about an inch from your ear. With IEM, the plugs reduce the background noise allowing for listening at a lower level.

Of course it does no good if the user chooses to blast sound through the IEM at max output.

I personally love IEMs. Ever since I started using them my music sounds better-at a decent volume level I get great sound, a strong bass and it doesn't sound distorted(think of how earbuds on another person sound when they have them cranked up & you can hear it). I haven't noticed any tinnitus. In fact my ears feel better since I don't have to crank up the sound as loud as I did with behind the neck Sonys in noisy/outside paces. Once I got used to the in ear I was fine. I have the stuffed/plugged feeling but it doesn't bother me as a good seal is necessary.

 

[Vali]

I get a mild rejection reaction whenever I wear earbuds and ear canal phones in particular. By the time I get used to having them on, I feel my ears tense and my hearing is somewhat congested, as when my ears are trying to cope with loud volume.
On occasion I used to get temporary tinnitus from wearing earphones so I stopped using them altogether. It may be that for some people earphones are simply intrusive, not necessarily more harmful than headphones as far as sound is concerned.

 

[dkpaul]

10hrs is just too long.

 

[Chri5peed]

^ I bet I listen to 10 hours in a day quite regularly. I'm on 5 hours now and its 6pm, another 3 or 4 hours without a doubt.

 

[scompton]

Some days, I also listen over 10 hours, especially week days when I listen all day at work. Only about 2 hours during my commute is with IEMs, but if I needed hearing protection at work, I could see listening with IEMs for 10 hours a day. I figure that if I need something plugging my ears 8 hours a day, I might as well be listening to music.

 

[FrederikS|TPU]

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Duderino /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thank you FrederikS. I would agree with you that the difference between MALL and PLL is largely based on listening habits. Based on the definition, MALL should be enough to accurately monitor the music and there should be no need to further increase volume. However, there are several individual reasons as to why the volume is increased beyond MALL to reach the PLL. Investigating which of these factors are most important would make for an interesting study that has not been done yet! El Duderino

Agreed! Could be a very interesting study. Maybe it is something that is inherent to human nature, i.e. we focus more on loud unusual noises etc... or something that no one has thought of before.

 

[Chri5peed]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scompton /img/forum/go_quote.gif Some days, I also listen over 10 hours, especially week days when I listen all day at work. Only about 2 hours during my commute is with IEMs, but if I needed hearing protection at work, I could see listening with IEMs for 10 hours a day. I figure that if I need something plugging my ears 8 hours a day, I might as well be listening to music.

Its no different than working 8 hours in an office every day with an indistinquishable drone of people talking. Least with music you get to chose the flavour of the drone.

 

[nickdawg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chri5peed /img/forum/go_quote.gif ^ I bet I listen to 10 hours in a day quite regularly. I'm on 5 hours now and its 6pm, another 3 or 4 hours without a doubt.

At one time or another I may have. I know I wore my IEM alot last semester. Not continuously but in between classes or walking around campus. On a noisy, urban campus, IEM is a must. I know I'm not damaging my ears more than the idiot with ibuds that I can hear a few feet away-with commotion in the background!! Even if I put my plugs in without sound I notice the noise is level significantly lowered and with music it is at a safe volume.

I listened for about 6 hours yesterday. It's not that unusual, especially if you have a comfortable IEM. I kept mine in for about 3 hours and it wasn't uncomfortable.

 

[nickdawg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vali /img/forum/go_quote.gif I get a mild rejection reaction whenever I wear earbuds and ear canal phones in particular. By the time I get used to having them on, I feel my ears tense and my hearing is somewhat congested, as when my ears are trying to cope with loud volume. On occasion I used to get temporary tinnitus from wearing earphones so I stopped using them altogether. It may be that for some people earphones are simply intrusive, not necessarily more harmful than headphones as far as sound is concerned.

I think you summed it up very well. Some people just cannot stand anything in their ears or they never get used to the sealed, stuffed feeling. Since they find it intrusive, they think it's dangerous and as a result we get the obligatory "IEMs are dangerous" thread. Or they may get bad advice from a doctor(who most likely thinks they are talking about the ibuds, which are bad) or there's that saying about not putting anything in your ears(I've never really heard it before). IEM is really an acquired taste: either you like it or not. Either it's intrusive and bugs you or you get used to it.

 

[Chri5peed]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickdawg /img/forum/go_quote.gif there's that saying about not putting anything in your ears(I've never really heard it before).

Whoever says that is talking out of their arse. The one major fact, being that hearing-aids fit into your ears almost exactly like IEMs. In fact E2s look a bit like hearing-aids.

Don't you think manufacturers of hearing-aids would be pretty obligated to produce comfy/non-dangerous things which would be in your ear every waking moment.



Its more a rule not to stick things in your ears which are pointy. Yes, that includes Q-tips/Cotton buds...you'd have to be blind if you think using Q-tips was completely safe.