[Inkmo]

Hey guys, long time no see! I've been so busy with school and just rockin' out with the cans I already have, so I haven't been here in a bit. Aaaaanyways:

I'm knocking out my public speaking requirement during the maymester. The topic for my persuasive speech is "Hearing Loss and the iPod Generation". Basically, I'm going to talk about how more ENTs are seeing people come into their offices deafer at a younger age. Also, I'm going to talk about masking effects and safe listening levels/times, and show them some of my personal tricks for doing such. Might also stress the importance of wearing plugs at shows... I figure these ought to be salient issues for the college crowd.

My question to you folks here at Head-fi would be 1) do you have any other suggestions for things that can be included in this speech? Keep in mind that I can't actually cite you guys, but it might give me some more ideas for when I'm doing my research later today and tomorrow. 2) I know that we have members here who are ENTs. I know that some of you guys have some good antecdotes, too. Is there any way I can substantiate your credentials and maybe cite you or your story in my speech? Would you be interested in that? I remember one of you guys had a really good story about an iPod deafened teenager who simply wouldn't heed your advice.

Anyways, thanks in advance, folks-who-post. I'll be around!

 

[nick_charles]

First I would do a search on "hearing damage" and loudness - there is plenty out there on that.

Some random thoughts
---------------------

Can you back-up the assertion that ENTs are seeing more deaf youngsters ?

If so can you causally link it to iPod use/ownership, what other factors might be at play

Why is the same not true for PCDP or cassette walkman listeners

Is listening with buds worse than listening with circumaural headphones ?

Buds should cut more external noise meaning you need listen at a lower level ?

Is compression in popular music (always loud) the culprit rather than the iPod itself

What listening levels do iPod users actually use ?

and so on and so forth...

good luck, sounds interesting

 

[uraflit]

maybe have a live demo sowing how loud is too loud?
eg. have a stock ipod with stock buds. and show them the varying levels and the dB levels. then, tell them how much is too dangerous!

 

[scompton]

For plugs at concerts, I'd mention the Ety ER-20, which is designed for fairly flat frequency blocking.

 

[Inkmo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nick_charles /img/forum/go_quote.gif First I would do a search on "hearing damage" and loudness - there is plenty out there on that. Some random thoughts --------------------- Can you back-up the assertion that ENTs are seeing more deaf youngsters ? If so can you causally link it to iPod use/ownership, what other factors might be at play Why is the same not true for PCDP or cassette walkman listeners Is listening with buds worse than listening with circumaural headphones ? Buds should cut more external noise meaning you need listen at a lower level ? Is compression in popular music (always loud) the culprit rather than the iPod itself What listening levels do iPod users actually use ? and so on and so forth... good luck, sounds interesting

I've been looking around JSTOR today. Lots of stuff about NIHL, but not specifically about the iPod. However, I know I've read before that it was a trend that doctors were seeing starting with the walkman generation. I think that mp3 players, being more ubiquitous than CDplayers and walkmen were, might cause us to see a greater trend. I have found some stuff correlating more technology (including mp3 players, but really anything with headphones) to hearing loss at earlier ages.

Fortunately, I have a couple of internet sources that deal more specifically with headphones and the masking effect. I wish I could remember where that one study that actually showed the levels people tended to listen at was. At least I have some articles (from reuters) stating that the stock iPod setup can achieve SPL of 120dB, and we all have seen people listening to those things at max.

I think that given the PSA nature of my article, I will avoid the tech-geekier aspects of my hobby. I'd like to talk about dynamic range and compression because it is a subject that interests me, but doing so implicitly derides other people's music choices more than being helpful, since most popular music these days is compress to the point where it's playing at peak practically the whole time...

Anyways, ATM I have academic sources that state how and why NIHL happens and correlate headphone usage to an extent, and I have internet sources that more explicitly condemn mp3 player usage and explain safe listening habits, so I think I have a good start.



on a tangent, I've thought about it and think that I actually prefer more compressed albums for walking around music. mainly because I can set it at what I know to be a reasonable volume and it will stay there (and before you freak out, that means I can hear people talking, or that a passing car or truck will drown out the music). Sibelius' tone poems, or anything else recorded well, can wait for when I'm sitting in a quiet room or something.

 

[Inkmo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by uraflit /img/forum/go_quote.gif maybe have a live demo sowing how loud is too loud? eg. have a stock ipod with stock buds. and show them the varying levels and the dB levels. then, tell them how much is too dangerous!

maybe if I owned an SPL meter... I don't think I'm going to even bring that technique up because most people are not about to drop 50 bucks to know how loud their headphones are.

I think I will cover this aspect more with anecdotes and then wheel out the science?

The solutions I am thinking about presenting will be more rule of thumb, like "can you hear someone over your headphones if they are talking", "can you tell what song it is from across the room", "isolation, not volume" & "different headphones for different uses", "do your ears ring when you go to bed", "don't listen for more than 8 hours", "85 decibels is about the volume of someone talking loudly", etc.

 

[Inkmo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scompton /img/forum/go_quote.gif For plugs at concerts, I'd mention the Ety ER-20, which is designed for fairly flat frequency blocking.

I've kinda been thinking about getting some of those. They look like they'll have a longer life than the foamies I've been using. They don't block as many dB, though, do they?

I saw something today, too, about Etys releasing a noise dosimeter. Something like an SPL meter, but it keeps a tab and calculates cumulative SPL I think

 

[scompton]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inkmo /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've kinda been thinking about getting some of those. They look like they'll have a longer life than the foamies I've been using. They don't block as many dB, though, do they? I saw something today, too, about Etys releasing a noise dosimeter. Something like an SPL meter, but it keeps a tab and calculates cumulative SPL I think

Looking at the Ear Plug Store, you can get 25 - 32 dB attenuation with disposable foam plugs. The Etys are 20dB. I bought a pair a few months ago, but I've not gone to a loud concert since I bought them.

 

[Suntory_Times]

Hmm, are you going to get into the whole problem the rule of thumb has with open headphones. + The lowest compression I ever listen to is 256kbps, and even then I want it higher.

 

[El Duderino]

This is an interesting thread and I can appreciate the OP's efforts towards public education.

JSTOR is a good resource but not the best. May I suggest using PubMed (PubMed Home) which will include articles cited in JSTOR as well as a range of other medical databases. If you try the search string "hearing loss AND MP3" you'll happen upon an article. Following the links on the sidebar (related articles) should lead you to a range of articles from the 1980s looking at hearing loss associated with Walkmans to more recent articles from the past several years looking at MP3 players and even the association of hearing loss with type of headphone used.

Unfortunately, many of these articles require institutional/university access. I would like to post the full PDFs here but this would breach copyright. If there is a specific article you would like, PM me and I may be able to get it for you.

I hope this helps.

El Duderino

 

[Punnisher]

It's good to see you're trying to educate the masses.

Though I think you should not use the title "ipod generation". It just reminds me of how some people call absolutely every mp3 player an ipod.

 

[malldian]

I think that the title is fairly representative of this (my generation).

 

[ericj]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suntory_Times /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hmm, are you going to get into the whole problem the rule of thumb has with open headphones. + The lowest compression I ever listen to is 256kbps, and even then I want it higher.

compression and compression aren't the same thing.

what inkmo is referring to is compression of the dynamic range of the music - meaning that everything is almost as loud as everything else. the classic example is the 1812 overture - they use actual explosives to perform this music, but with the dynamic range compressed, the explosions are no louder than the violins.

Inkmo: I'm not sure what you mean by the masking effect. Do you mean the way that the really peaky frequency response of some headphones leads people to turn up the master volume to a point where they feel like the headphone is "loud enough" but there are frequencies that are far louder than would be safe?

 

[Inkmo]

Duderino: that sounds good. Library is closed today sadly, and I need one more source (I decided one of the ones I already had was not relevant enough). Of course, I might just use an online source. I think I'm allowed another, and I have enough articles talking about the medical aspect (though none that talk explicitly about headphones, they all list them as a culprit with hearing loss and my generation). If I see anything I can't get ahold of on my own, I'll PM you.... but I might be able to patch something together up at the library tomorrow when I can use the college account.

Punnisher: If left to my own devices (no pun intended), it would be the iAudio generation ;P. or the mp3 generation (not! ogg generation!!!), but I figure there's no point in mincing words when the iPod has made itself so prominent to the consumer masses (you know, like band-aid & kleenex: the most popular brand is synonymous with the thing itself). Maybe if I were giving this speech to other devoted hobbyists, or trying to sell my hobby to them as opposed to just safe listening...

Hey Eric! Yes, that's the compression I meant. When I said masking effect, I was referring to when people turn up their headphones to drown out outside sound, and they are unable to realize the SPL they're listening to because it sounds 'normal'. I'm nearly sure that is what it's called. I've also heard the term 'habituation effect', where when walking into a loud sound environment you quickly become used to it.

sorry I haven't been on IRC lately. mcafee has decided to be really difficult about preventing IRC communication, but only with certain servers. I can still log on with my art friends at aniverse just fine. I'll try and be in chat sometime when I'm not crazy busy with school.

 

[JSTpt1022]

Definitely touch on how dynamic compression of todays music is contributing to the problem. Most of these people don't know that they are listening to garbage and they don't realize that everything is not supposed to be the same volume. I would also try to explain how IEMs enable you to listen at much lower volumes than their ear buds. If you are on the bus and you have your ipod turned up loud enough to hear with your ear buds, and I can hear the music sitting next to you, you are actively destroying your hearing.