[nsx_23]

I just go with whatever feels just right to my ears, as mine tend to be extremely sensitive to loud noises.

My level attenuator is permanently attached with my SF5pros, as it lowers the volume to a comfortable level to me, and I always take breaks so I'm not listening for really long periods of time at once.

I'm really considering getting ER4Ps, as I find the SF5pros don't give me a nice enough fit. Anyone know where I can pick up some cheap?

 

[pirate6955]

my opinion is that proper use of headphones can improve your hearing.
i base this on the results of my yearly audiometric testing done by my employer.

your brain is like a dsp filter. we spend our lives focusing on people talking. pulling voices out from the background or ambient sounds around us. voices occupy a narrow band of the spectrum. by listening to music, especially at low volumes where you have to 'squint' to hear things trains you to hear frequencies your brain has written off as not needed. your brain will add gain to areas that the ear is weak in reproducing until the response has improved dramatically.

i think part of all this break-in period for headphones is simply the user learning how to hear the sounds. how to extract more detail.

as for sound pressure. 90 db is 90 db regardless how far away it is generated. if it measures 90 db at the eardrum it is 90db period.
sound level drops as the square of distance. so to get 90 db at the ear from 10 feet away takes alot more energy that it would from 5mm away. but regardless 90 db is still 90 db at the point of measure.

you can damage your hearing any number of ways. jamming a pencil in your ear would be a no no. so you dont do it. ear damage from sound pressure requires time at that pressure level. at these levels of sound people start to become irritable and generally uncomfortable. most likely your going to back off on the volume before you sustain any permanent loss.

if your ears are ringing after exposure to a sound it means you have pushed the limit a bit far. but it does not mean you have damaged the ear necessarily.

work on hearing faint sounds at extreme ends of the spectrum. squint with your ears. it might knock 15 years off your ears.

 

[Chuwy]

So heres a run down of all the possible scenarios. Just because I'm that type of guy.

Here my big mess of thoughts on all this, theres a few assumptions sprinkled here and there, so feel free to tell me if I hit the nail on the head or if I miss the mark completely.

I. Quiet Environment:

a. Headphone: Regular volume, I'll go ahead and call this X db.

b. IEM: Closer to ear, so [Assumption 1: The closer the source is, the louder it is, because sound waves deteriorate over distance] to hear it at the same volume, you will turn the volume down, resulting in the same volume X db.

b. is where most people go wrong, people assume that when you use IEMs, you don't turn the volume down. YES, it's louder, but that doesn't mean we will listen to it that way. WE. TURN. IT. DOWN. So the volume is STILL X db.

II. Noisy Environment:

a. Headphone: Due to noise, you will need to turn it up. So if [Assumption 2: Volume needed in a Noisy Environment = Volume needed in Quiet Environment + Background noise] you wish to hear you music just the same, you will need the volume to be X + whatever volume the background is db.

b. IEM: Because IEMs have isolative qualities (yes, I know that's not a word), the Volume needed in a Noisy Environment = Background noise - Noise canceled by way of Isolation + X db.

Conclusion:
In quiet environments, [Assumption 3: Volume/loudness/db of music which we hear/hits our eardrums is the only thing that affects hearing loss], Headphones should be just as bad for your hearing as IEMs.

In noisy environments, the volume of the sound you hear out of your headphones will be more than the volume of your IEMs by the amount of sound that your IEMs isolate. So therefore, IEMS ARE SAFER.

There. I hope thats the final nail in the coffin of the IEM = BAD myth.

(Assuming my assumptions are right.

)

Chuwy

 

[Mr_Junesequa]

Protecting Your Hearing

HeadWize - Article: Preventing Hearing Damage When Listening With Headphones (A HeadWize Headphone Guide)


some good web sources above.

Basically 70-90db from a single source for 8 hours or more is quite safe for your ears. For every increase dB chances of abuse and damage to the ear increase exponentially, the amount of safe time also shortens. Along with this if extra sound sources are introduced into the environment. e.g loud lawn mower and 90db of speaker noise, total ambient noise in the environment contributes to the overall 'volume level' which in turn can lead to harmfull effects over time. an iem's ability to drown out other noise increases control of the sound environment.

 

[xxbaker]

pirate6955 is right. obviously distance doesn't matter, it's only about the amount of power that gets to your ears. otherwise all headphones would be horrible for you and live concerts wouldn't be able to damage your hearing which is obviously false

 

[scompton]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_Junesequa /img/forum/go_quote.gif Think of a blank wall. near the wall there is one man with a bucket of paint. He throws it on the wall and gets a lot of coverage on the wall from a small amount of paint as he is standing close by. Now imagine 4 other men standing 10 or so staps back.. these 5 or 6 other men who are standing far away throwing paint in unicine get about the same coverage on the wall as one man standing close. Iems can be as bad as a jet engine at half volume.

Good analogy, faulty conclusion. The 5 or 6 people is like a jet engine from a mile away which is not that loud. What matters is the SPL at your ear. Yes IEMs can cause hearing damage. So can a rock concert. Both cause damage because of high SPL. Most people just listen too loud, whether with IEMs, full sized headphones, or speakers. The same SPL level at your ear causes the same hearing damage whether the sound is coming from something in your ear or from something a mile away.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuwy /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you can't tell (i certainly can't), this guy is of the "DISTANCE" matters camp. Now, is there any sliver of rationality or truth to what this guy is preaching?

He has absolutely no idea what he's taking about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickdawg /img/forum/go_quote.gif I remember this topic being kicked around before. Unless ipods/mp3 players start using a dB scale to measure volume output, there will still be a risk for hearing damage. Even with a good seal and good isolation there's no real exact way to know when you get to 80 or 90 dB.

The problem with dB scales on a player is they will only be right for the headphone that was used to create the scale. If you listen with more sensitive headphones, you'll kill your hearing. If you listen to headphones that are harder to drive, you'll think 80dB is not too loud.

As I've posted in the numerous threads on this topic, here's how I measure how loud I'm listening to an IEM. http://www.head-fi.org/forums/2850576-post102.html It's not perfect but it gives you some idea. Here's how you can measure SPL of a full sized can http://www.head-fi.org/forums/2767153-post42.html. Again not perfect but gives you an idea.

Using these methods, I've been listening over a year at 65dB average level. At first this sounds quiet, but you shortly get used to it and 80dB even sounds too loud. At a meet a few weeks ago 4 people commented on how low I listen and I had to turn the volume down every time I put headphones on. I gives me real peace of mind that I'm not damaging my hearing.

 

[Mr_Junesequa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_Junesequa /img/forum/go_quote.gif Protecting Your Hearing HeadWize - Article: Preventing Hearing Damage When Listening With Headphones (A HeadWize Headphone Guide) some good web sources above. Basically 70-90db from a single source for 8 hours or more is quite safe for your ears. For every increase dB chances of abuse and damage to the ear increase exponentially, the amount of safe time also shortens. Along with this if extra sound sources are introduced into the environment. e.g loud lawn mower and 90db of speaker noise, total ambient noise in the environment contributes to the overall 'volume level' which in turn can lead to harmfull effects over time. an iem's ability to drown out other noise increases control of the sound environment.

yeah the paint thing didnt make sense. the way you percieved my conclusion is not the way Iwanted it to be communicated. I was just posting late at night and couldnt be bothered editing or typing nemore.

I am not a professional audiologist. If any of you ARE please say so. I havn't been able to find any credible sources online as yet in relation to hearing impairment and headphone iem listening. scompton seems to be the most informed poster here cleoOS also seems to know a thing or two. The two links above are not cited...so no idea if what they say is complete fact ...or fact mixed in with opinion and 'false conclusion.'

this thread should be continued in sound science.

 

[scompton]

Audiologists have commented on threads on the same topic before. They have said the same thing as those of us saying the SPL at your ear is what matters, not distance.

Some of the threads have been started by people who have been told that IEMs cause hearing damage. So, either the people starting these threads misunderstood what their audiologists meant, or one group audiologists, or the other, don't know what they're talking about.

 

[Mr_Junesequa]

well then the op question has been answered in the post above this one

 

[afisamuleal]

the perceived loudness of sound is logarithmic, and so yes, distance matters quite a lot.

I have a test for you. If you set your player to a specific volume and listen with headphones and with earbuds, one would sound louder. The one that does is the one that damages your hearing faster =D

 

[Chuwy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuwy /img/forum/go_quote.gif b. IEM: Closer to ear, so [Assumption 1: The closer the source is, the louder it is, because sound waves deteriorate over distance] to hear it at the same volume, you will turn the volume down, resulting in the same volume X db. b. is where most people go wrong, people assume that when you use IEMs, you don't turn the volume down. YES, it's louder, but that doesn't mean we will listen to it that way. WE. TURN. IT. DOWN. So the volume is STILL X db.

I quote myself.

We lower the volume to get the same SPL.

 

[scompton]

Quote:

Originally Posted by afisamuleal /img/forum/go_quote.gif the perceived loudness of sound is logarithmic, and so yes, distance matters quite a lot. I have a test for you. If you set your player to a specific volume and listen with headphones and with earbuds, one would sound louder. The one that does is the one that damages your hearing faster =D

You're exactly right with the wrong argurment. The one that sounds louder causes the most damage because it has the most SPL at your ear. That's what matters, not the SPL at the source.

A jet engine 10 feet away will make you deaf in a hurry. One 100 miles away you won't hear. That has nothing to do with listening to music with IEMs at safe listening levels. That does no more damage than listening to speakers at the same perceived level.

If you listen to speakers, or full sized headphones, at a safe level, why would you listen to IEMs at a higher level.

 

[scytheavatar]

Who the heck out there listens to IEM at the same volume as their headphones? If you do, obviously your ears are going to suffer. But common sense would dictate that you'll lower the volume.

 

[scompton]

Some people do. It's even worse for iBuds. A month or so ago, while commuting to work on the DC Metro I was listening with my UM1. In the silence between songs, I heard some music. Taking the UM1s out and looking around, the only other person listening to music was 20 feet away though iBuds. I could hear his music over the 90dB background noise with my UM1s in my ears. The UM1s block at least 20dB.

 

[nsx_23]

I know what you mean.

When I'm on the bus or the train, even through my SF5pros I can hear some moron with his punk rock music on full blast through HD212s, crappy iBuds or other cheapo headsets.

Don't people appreciate their hearing anymore these days?