[vvcv]

Hello to all my fellow headphone and music enthusiasts!

I’ll try to make this as quick as I can. And so sorry it's such a long winded question. I am a big music fan as well as with audio hardware. Until recently, that has all revolved around amps and speakers. More specifically small watt tube amps and Class A SS (2a3, 300b and SETs with various types of output tubes). I do have a few different types of DACs from Digital chips (AKM & ESS), tube DACs and R-2R. I prefer smaller speakers for ease of use and for the imaging -[imaging/soundstage] will be the fundamental idea in my question. My music enjoyment is about 90% classical/contemporary classical music. Most of that listening is of solo recordings/performances to smaller sized ensembles. The main reason I’ve hesitated for so long on buying large symphonic recordings is that I have not been happy with my setup or with many others that I have heard. Not that I haven’t heard some great systems do magic to a good large performance, but the thought of having that gear at home wasn’t really for me. I also don’t really like the sound of large watt solid state amps, and I don’t want to buy large Class A just for symphonic music. So, my wandering around this problem lasted for a very long while. Sure, I could enjoy a good Shostakovich symphony recording from the newer RNO cycle, for example, but I knew I couldn’t, and didn’t get inside that enjoyment, or lost in it as much as I can a Shostakovich string quartet on my system. I finally made the decision to start looking at larger speakers (Maggies and In-Line Array) types. Finally, the question is near. Then one day, really just out of curiosity, I plugged my Audioquest Nighthawk headphones into my tube DAC. Never, and I mean never had I heard these headphones do what they were doing. My other DACs couldn’t touch what I heard either. I was perplexed, as the tube DAC marketing doesn’t even push it’s headphone output as being something worth listening to. The aspect I heard, that I had never heard before, and what honestly kept me from exploring headphones was soundstage, and plenty of it. I heard dimension, layers of instruments in a symphony. I heard the concert hall as I do when I’m at a performance. I heard the space between all the instruments in a smaller ensemble, such as the recordings of Anna Thorvaldsdottir -my favorite example- it was just badass. So, i blew the idea of large speakers and large watt amps out the window and realized headphones could be the way to what I had been looking for (for those times i want to hear a few symphonies back to back). So, I found Drop.com. I lost my mind when I got there. I picked up 3 headphones and two amps in about 5 minutes. I didn’t know what I would like, and the prices were so good I figured it would give me a good idea to start from. And it did exactly that. Which is why I’m here.

My favorite headphone out of the AQ Nighthawk, Massdrop x Sennheiser HD 6XX
Massdrop x Meze 99 Noir Closed-Back, and the Drop + HIFIMAN HE4XX Planar Magnetic is by far the HiFiMan piece. They all do things well, some very rich in tone that can make a cello sound amazing, but the one thing that had kept me from headphones (BIG space, sense of layered spaces) the HiFiMan does so well. So, my question to you guy and gals, is that with my music of choice, and what I really enjoy in headphones, which headphone would be a nice ‘budget minded’ 2nd step forward? A part of me is saying to live with these for a bit longer, and another part wants to get on with it and listen to nothing but symphonies for a solid week. I’m considering the HiFiMan HE560 and HE6se and the Audeze LCD-2. With the large price difference between the two HiFiMan options, is the sound difference that much better with the 6se or is it just a ‘different’ sound, and/or does a diminishing return come into the picture pretty quick between these two? What differences are generally heard and talked about considering the HE560 and the LCD-2? Between these two manufactures, which considers soundstage to be high on the list in R&D? What I’m looking for is either a very very good headphone (like these mentioned or others slightly higher in price). I've picked these 3 headphones for the driver tech. and from what i've read. Could either of these three headphones be considered a final headphone purchase, when considering it will only be used for symphonic music which is only about 17% of the classical I listen to. I could buy the HE560 or LCD-2 now, but would have to save for the 6se -which I don’t mind because I enjoy what I have. With that in mind, if I had a bit more of what my HiFiMan has, I think it could possibly be my final headphone. I like it that much (but jeez, i'm still only learning). I also think I’ve got what I want as far as headphone amps. I have the Cavalli tube hybrid picked up at Drop and will be getting the La Figaro. I don't think I could justify the price I spend on speaker amps only because of the time I'd be giving to the headphone amp. But, i’ll never say never, but I know these two amps will keep me happy for a very long time. And, I guess I’m looking for that right headphone to do the same, thus giving me a headphone system that will do the exact same -one to keep my very happy for years. If you don't mind, i'll reiterate again, and sorry, I know you guys have read it over and over, but symphonic music is not my primary listening, so I guess I’m looking for great, but not the best that there is.

Thanks a lot gals/guys for reading, I hope some of you got through it for a bit of advice I may be able to use. And I will appreciate any and all suggestions. If a specific headphone is offered for suggestion, do you mind sharing the music you like to listen to with them, and if possible, a quick relative music connection you may/may not experience between the two?

Thanks again everyone. So glad I’ve found headphones and what a headphone amp can do which is vastly superior to all of my DACs headphone amps.

Oh, sorry, for making it so long, I had no idea. All work no play makes me a dull boy!

Cheers,
robert

 

[NA Blur]

I highly recommend rewriting this thread and vastly simplify it. We want to help, but I don’t want to spend 15 minutes dissecting your thoughts.

 

[Monsterzero]

Robert,welcome to Head-Fi. Sorry about your wallet.

OK,a couple of takeaways from your post...

First allow me to say I do not listen to classical. At all. So take these comments accordingly.That being said I know gear,so im not clueless.

Regarding the Hifiman products. Great sounding. Questionable reliability. Lots of failed driver horror stories,which I personally have experienced myself with a pair of HE-6. Two failures within nine months of new purchase. For this reason I wont buy another of their headphones.
If youre okay with the reliability issues I would suggest you do your homework on the HE6. First it doesnt have a massive stage,and more importantly its one of the hardest headphones in the world to drive. Your post is a bit confusing,but I gather that you do not own an amp capable of driving it correctly.

EDIT: Neither the Cavalli nor the 339 will drive the HE6. The 339 is an OTL amp and high impedance dynamic drivers will sound the best out of it. Planars not so much.

The Audeze LCD-2 also doesnt have big staging. Its strong suit is its sub-bass response. If you were asking for a planar that is great for EDM this would be a strong choice. For classical though? Perhaps im missing something.

Recs for you to research:

I'd look into a Sennheiser HD800,AKG K701,AKG 501 or if you want to stick to planars a HiFiMan Ananda.

All that being said you'd find your audio nirvana ultimately with a e-stat system. A STAX setup will bring you as close to a speaker like setup that youre likely to find. Big $ though.

 

[vvcv]

I highly recommend rewriting this thread and vastly simplify it. We want to help, but I don’t want to spend 15 minutes dissecting your thoughts.

I'm not going to re do anything because someone doesn't want to read two paragraphs. Look, they are not 'thoughts', I didn't write a goofy poem, and I honestly do not see 'thoughts' to be dissected. Yes, perhaps some confusion on my part, but I mentioned that I'm very new to the headphone world. Everything i tried to mention i did from a beginners point of view in an attempt to try to help and give as much information as possible on my end; all in an effort to get a better reasoning for choices offered. Never mind you however, you've already wasted too much of my time, and if you do not want to spend the time to help and read two paragraphs then why even comment? Just leave and make the world better. Anyway, someone not willing to try to understand what i'm looking for in audio (which, by the way, is a complicated matter that can easily lead to complicated discussions that go far beyond two paragraphs). Anyway, if you're unwilling to read, then you are the last person i'd want advice from. Amazing how someone can show their personality within one sentence. I mean, is this how you introduce yourself at parties?

 

[vvcv]

Robert,welcome to Head-Fi. Sorry about your wallet.

OK,a couple of takeaways from your post...

First allow me to say I do not listen to classical. At all. So take these comments accordingly.That being said I know gear,so im not clueless.

Regarding the Hifiman products. Great sounding. Questionable reliability. Lots of failed driver horror stories,which I personally have experienced myself with a pair of HE-6. Two failures within nine months of new purchase. For this reason I wont buy another of their headphones.
If youre okay with the reliability issues I would suggest you do your homework on the HE6. First it doesnt have a massive stage,and more importantly its one of the hardest headphones in the world to drive. Your post is a bit confusing,but I gather that you do not own an amp capable of driving it correctly.

EDIT: Neither the Cavalli nor the 339 will drive the HE6. The 339 is an OTL amp and high impedance dynamic drivers will sound the best out of it. Planars not so much.

The Audeze LCD-2 also doesnt have big staging. Its strong suit is its sub-bass response. If you were asking for a planar that is great for EDM this would be a strong choice. For classical though? Perhaps im missing something.

Recs for you to research:

I'd look into a Sennheiser HD800,AKG K701,AKG 501 or if you want to stick to planars a HiFiMan Ananda.

All that being said you'd find your audio nirvana ultimately with a e-stat system. A STAX setup will bring you as close to a speaker like setup that youre likely to find. Big $ though.

Thanks a lot Monsterzero, and no problems with the wallet, I'm getting some good sessions out of the gear and like all of it. And I really do appreciate the info on HiFiMan QC. Something I definitely do not want to deal with.

But yeah, coming to a forum to ask a question and get the typical audio elitist bull is something I don't have time for. Silly that you see it more on audio gear forums then you do on musician forums.

 

[Monsterzero]

and no problems with the wallet.

If cost is no object grab a STAX 009 and a BHSE e-stat energizer. You can kick back and know that you have one of the finest combos in this hobby. Substitute a 007 instead of 009 if you prefer a bit more bass and musicality. Its generally agreed that this combo is up there with replicating a speaker-like experience.

And I really do appreciate the info on HiFiMan QC. Something I definitely do not want to deal with.

Yeah,I mean its sad that they have the QC issues as many of their headphones do sound fantastic.

Good luck in finding your perfect set-up.

 

[vvcv]

If cost is no object grab a STAX 009 and a BHSE e-stat energizer. You can kick back and know that you have one of the finest combos in this hobby. Substitute a 007 instead of 009 if you prefer a bit more bass and musicality. Its generally agreed that this combo is up there with replicating a speaker-like experience.


Yeah,I mean its sad that they have the QC issues as many of their headphones do sound fantastic.

Good luck in finding your perfect set-up.

Thanks dude, what it's really about is that this headphone system is acting as my 2nd system for a small portion of listen time. As stated in first post, symphonic music makes up only about 17% of my listening time. I watch movies even less than that, and in the same way, I would want to find a theater system that financially 'fit' the time spent with that system watching movies. I certainly wouldn't spend the same amount as my main music system. So, when considering the 17% listen times, I figured it'd be a bad move to spend more on a piece of headphone gear that can pay for a fantastic 2a3 amp. For headphone expense, I figured i'd be comfortable spending 13% of what I paid for my main systems favorite speakers -which put me right about $6-700. About 17% of listen time with headphones that cost about 13% of main system speakers seemed fine. Just to bring it back a step towards simple, I may look, or even pay a bit, for a good warranty on a pair of a HiFiMan piece -if the La Figaro sounds nice with my current HiFiMan pair.

 

[Maelob]

How much money are you looking on spending? You mentioned soundstage but nothing on what type of tonality do you prefer in your music. Do you prefer detailed analytical, neutral, warm, polite easy listening. There are a bunch of variations just like speakers. If soundstage is all you care the headphone most recognizable for that is the Senn HD800 or 800S. But they are not planar and are very neutral and towards the lean side unlike Audeze headphones. But for planar check Dan Clark Ether 2 Heaphones and Meze Empyrean.

 

[Monsterzero]

Thanks dude, what it's really about is that this headphone system is acting as my 2nd system for a small portion of listen time. As stated in first post, symphonic music makes up only about 17% of my listening time. I watch movies even less than that, and in the same way, I would want to find a theater system that financially 'fit' the time spent with that system watching movies. I certainly wouldn't spend the same amount as my main music system. So, when considering the 17% listen times, I figured it'd be a bad move to spend more on a piece of headphone gear that can pay for a fantastic 2a3 amp. For headphone expense, I figured i'd be comfortable spending 13% of what I paid for my main systems favorite speakers -which put me right about $6-700. About 17% of listen time with headphones that cost about 13% of main system speakers seemed fine. Just to bring it back a step towards simple, I may look, or even pay a bit, for a good warranty on a pair of a HiFiMan piece -if the La Figaro sounds nice with my current HiFiMan pair.

I used to own the 339 and for the price its a nice sounding amp,assuming you upgrade the stock tubes that come with it. Typically OTL amps like the 339 are best suited for dynamic driver headphones,250 ohms and higher. Headphones that fit this bill are the Sennheiser HD800 as I mentioned above,as well as the Beyerdynamic T1. Neither will floor you with their bass response,in fact I sold the T1 for this very reason.

Some 339 owners,like @Liu Junyuan report great results with the 339+ Hifiman HE500,however also having owned the HE-500 I wouldnt call it a classical music master. It has a warm,punchy musical tone with great mids,but quite narrow of a stage,especially without any mods done to it,not too unlike a Senn HD650.

Still IMO you'd be better served with a good solid state amp and a tube buffer for planar headphones. OTLs really arent made to drive planar headphones.

 

[vvcv]

How much money are you looking on spending? You mentioned soundstage but nothing on what type of tonality do you prefer in your music. Do you prefer detailed analytical, neutral, warm, polite easy listening. There are a bunch of variations just like speakers. If soundstage is all you care the headphone most recognizable for that is the Senn HD800 or 800S. But they are not planar and are very neutral and towards the lean side unlike Audeze headphones. But for planar check Dan Clark Ether 2 Heaphones and Meze Empyrean.

Sorry, i post much more in speaker audio system forums & when I mention "small watt tube amps and Class A SS (2a3, 300b and SETs with various types of output tubes)" I understand that most people will get the idea of the sound I like. Anyway, the sound I prefer is a slightly thicker mid-bass (at about 400Hz) and rich mellow sounding tones all the way up and a slow roll off at about 16kHz (I can hear up to 17.4kHz on both ears and some high frequencies in music can hurt my ears like with many others). If you're familiar with speakers like Harbeth, Grahm, Spendor, and Wharfdale (which is my current favorite British speaker of this bunch right now) then you get an idea of the sound i'm looking for. But the tube amps I mention in my first post should give the best idea of the type of sound I like. My favorite speaker is the Omega Super Alnico. For me it does everything. You sit 5 feet from them, they render more detail than headphones. Louis, the designer, has told me that a lot of headphone fans that move to speaker systems find his speakers very nice. However, none of these put a veil on the sound like the more popular Sonus Fabers or some Vandersteens. All the above speakers render detail like The Drop HiFiMan headphone can, they also come close to the tonal sound of these speakers, but still far away. I like my Meze sound a lot too. Even my Senn. 6xx sound slightly on the warm side with the Cavalli tube hybrid amp. That should sum up the sound i'm looking for, and you asked for price. I listed 3 headphones in my first post that range from about $600 to $1500 if i remember right. And thanks for the Dan Clark mention, never knew there was a headphone with that name. Oh, which Meze has a Planar driver?

 

[Maelob]

Meze Empyrean are planar but expensive 3k. The HD-800 are probably not a good choice based on your preferences. Dan Clark was known as Mr. Speakers, the Ether-2 are around 2k, but he also recently released the Aeon 2 for 799. Drop have the older Aeon on sale but they dont have the biggest soundstage. Ive never listened to LCD-2 but the tonality aligns with your preferences based on what i read. Best recommendation i could give you is too try to find a store that offer various brands and listen to them. Or these days a lot of online retailers have good return policy where you can try stuff at home.

 

[GravityEyelids]

But yeah, coming to a forum to ask a question and get the typical audio elitist bull is something I don't have time for. Silly that you see it more on audio gear forums then you do on musician forums.

Expecting people to have the courtesy to post succinctly when asking for advice is not limited to "audio elistist " forums. It's pretty universal for any sub or forum when you're coming to people for advice. But thanks for insulting us all the same. He's actually looking out for you, as you don't seem to realize that it's not only courteous but also advantageous for your own goals to organize your post so that people can read it. Says a lot about your attitude that you read it in such a rude tone and saw fit to lash out like that. And saw fit to randomly interject again and cause conflict when NA Blur didn't even respond to your initial comments and the person your were responding to was trying to be a neutral party and avoid conflict altogether and help you. It's clear that you're judging us before you even stepped foot here, so you're just reinforcing the negativity and hate that you already have harbored against us.

If you're struggling to write, here are some tips:

• If you're going to write a wall-of-text, paraphrase what you are asking at the bottom, the top, or both. There is no indication of what you're asking until over SIX HUNDRED words into your post - do you realize that? Yes you do, because you comment on it constantly, even after initially saying "ill try to make this as quick as I can". And WE'RE the ones wasting your time? How can you expect people to value your time when you 1) don't value theirs, and 2) get snarky, defensive and insulting when someone makes a suggestion that will end up helping you get more solid recommendations. Someone should be able to glance over a post, get an idea of what's being asked, and decide whether what you're asking falls under their area of expertise, and then read the rest of the post and answer it.

• Use bullet points (or at least concise sentences) rather than telling a massive story. Your first paragraph could have been cut down to like 6 sentences. Stuff like "i come from a speaker background, here's the speaker equipment i own [list equipment]", "I listen to 90% classical/contemporary classical music, most of which is solo recordings/performances and smaller sized ensembles." "I plugged my Audioquest Nighthawk headphones into my tube DAC and was blown away by the soundstage, air, and space, and realized that headphones could be a solution. I went on Drop and bought [these headphones], of which my favorite was [this headphone] because [reason]". A few sentences like that gets across 95% of what you're trying to say and lets us understand your background just fine.

• Format it so that it's easy to glance over, broken up, and doesn't give someone a headache when skimming it. Imagine trying to read this on mobile. I know you think it's "just two paragraphs", but these are objectively, obviously MASSIVE paragraphs. At the very least, break these sections (or "paragraphs") up.

• Your grammar and punctuation are awful. Again - you are here asking us for your help, but making us sit through this wall of text with errors all over the place. No one cares about a few spelling mistakes, but they do care about run-ons and completely ignoring punctuation that makes it difficult to read. If you can take the time to write 1000+ words, you can take the time to run through it again and take 3 mins to fix major errors.

Again - your entire purpose here is to ask for recommendations and help. You are straight up turning away probably half a dozen or more experts who otherwise would have given you extremely helpful and throughful advice which would save you money and bring you closer to the audio nirvana that you undoubtedly spending a ton of time on. People here don't owe you anything. Why should we want to help you when it's clear you dont respect us or our craft or community beyond what you can get out of it while having to endure these horrible elitist audio gear forums.

There are people here who have been involved with audio for HALF A CENTURY and some of the guys here have more knowledge about audio in their little finger than you will gain in your entire life, so show some respect and you will be treated with respect.

 

[vvcv]

There are people here who have been involved with audio for HALF A CENTURY and some of the guys here have more knowledge about audio in their little finger than you will gain in your entire life, so show some respect and you will be treated with respect.

What is 'audio' knowledge? I came here for information on a couple of headphones as tools to listen to music. I'm sure I could design a tube amp sitting at the dinner table and have it built the next day. I'm sure I could build you a directional RCA cable while driving, is that what audio knowledge is? Do you know what a directional RCA cable is? Doesn't matter, because I thought this was a forum to learn about tools to listen to music. Look, headphones are such a very small part of the audio reproduction world, it does not matter to me if your headphone pals know more of headphones than I do. Have at it, be my guest. However, I'm sure I can tell you the difference between an augmented or diminished 7th by ear, and probably tell you the root note. So, do I need people to tell me what sound I like? Not at all. And I'm sure I can hear a lot better than your Half Century pals anyway. I'm only hear to save a bit of time, which I've done. Now I'll get back to why I stopped by, music.

Thanks for making my morning a good laugh!

 

[zorilon]

I will recomand you only one headphone: HIFIMAN ARYA!
It has soundstage and stereo imaging like HD800 but with the correct tonality and planar sub bass. Amazing for classical music and great with other genres.
You should try one when you have a chance.

 

[GravityEyelids]

What is 'audio' knowledge? I came here for information on a couple of headphones as tools to listen to music. I'm sure I could design a tube amp sitting at the dinner table and have it built the next day. I'm sure I could build you a directional RCA cable while driving, is that what audio knowledge is? Do you know what a directional RCA cable is? Doesn't matter, because I thought this was a forum to learn about tools to listen to music. Look, headphones are such a very small part of the audio reproduction world, it does not matter to me if your headphone pals know more of headphones than I do. Have at it, be my guest. However, I'm sure I can tell you the difference between an augmented or diminished 7th by ear, and probably tell you the root note. That's why I'm here, music.

Thanks for making my morning a good laugh!

And again, you come off as completely out of touch, self-righteous, and condescending. At this point i just want to keep letting you talk because you're excellent at making yourself look bad all by yourself.