[Lunatique]

I'm currently trying to decide on which of the Denons to buy, but according to HeadRoom's frequency graphs and their own product reviews, they seem to be conflicting?

According to the reviews, the D7000 is supposed to be a full octave more extended in the deep bass than any other headphones. The graphs do not show this at all, and in fact, the D2000 and D5000 both appears to be more extended and the roll-off is less steep than the D7000?

Essentially, I'm upgrading from the ATH-M50 and HD650. I'm pretty happy with the ATH-M50, except that I wish the 30Hz region is about 5dB more or so (I'm using my Klein + Hummel O300D studio monitors as reference), the soundstage bigger, and has a lusher sound overall (but without losing detail or gaining any treble harshness). The "perceived" frequency response of the M50 is so damn close to my idea of neutral (more so in the bass region, as the lower treble is slightly recessed) that it's really a shame it's just off by a tiny bit. I can't EQ its 30Hz region without distorting it either.

I like the HD650 for its comfort, soundstage, and smoothness, although its deep bass region (below 50Hz) is lacking quite a bit. This isn't obvious when I listen to the HD650 without other points of reference since it sounds quite balanced, but when I switch to my Klein + Hummel O300D studio monitors and the M50, it becomes very obvious that the HD650's 30~45Hz region is recessed by roughly 6~12dB or so--this is particularly obvious when listening for that "thump in your chest" characteristic of kick drums. In other words, it's lacking bass punch and the substantial deep bass that devices with really extended bass capabilities can reproduce.

It was suggested to me that I could simply EQ the HD650 to get them to sound the way I want, but after actually trying that, I found the HD650 reaches its distortion threshold just at the frequency range/amplitude I'm trying to EQ--meaning that when pushed that hard with EQ, they distort. Also, I don't like the idea of having to use EQ, since that an extra layer between me and the music, and is a PITA when switching between devices and players.

So how am I supposed to interpret the HeadRoom's graphs and product reviews when they are telling me different things?

 

[donunus]

If you base off the graphs, the m50 extends deepest

Also the other cans will not give you the ATs tonal blend as you can see in the measurement of the highs

 

[Lunatique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by donunus /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you base off the graphs, the m50 extends deepest Also the other cans will not give you the ATs tonal blend as you can see in the measurement of the highs

Yet in HeadRoom's product review of the M50, they say nothing about its kickass deep bass extension, which is one of the best I have ever heard (but I still want that last +5dB at 30Hz to match my K+H O300D's). The high's of the M50 I'm not so adamant about, as I feel it's a bit manipulated to create "perceptual" accuracy/neutrality. But I guess if it "sounds" right then what's to complain about? The HD650's highs are totally fine with me though--I would be very happy to find a pair of headphones that has the M50's deep bass extension + 5dB at 30Hz, and the HD650'a mids, highs, soundstage, and comfort.

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunatique The graphs do not show this at all, and in fact, the D2000 and D5000 both appears to be more extended and the roll-off is less steep than the D7000?

I've pondered that myself.

Initially I thought the D7000 might have not had a good seal when we measured them, but the isolation measurement shows that the seal on the 7000 and 5000 was about the same.

It is clear to me that the D7000 has "more bass" than the D5000 --- I haven't done a head-to-head comparo with the M50.

There is one thing in the measurements that may have some bearing, though. If you look at the low frequency square wave response, you'll notice that with the D5000 the top of the waveform is very linear. The D7000 is less so and goes across the zero axis before the waveform swings in the next direction.

In my experience, the more tilted and non-linear the square wave top, the "looser" or less punchy the bass is. Not a hard rule, though, just seems to go that way quite a bit.

You'll notice the M50 is not as linear as the D5000 (which is the most linear square wave of any headphone we've measured) but it's trailing edge is farther away from the zero axis. This means that while it may be a bit more colored (non-linear) it's also likely punchier sounding.

 

[Lunatique]

Tyll - Thank you for the insight. So am I to assume that it's very possible the Denon's won't exactly be a step up from the M50's or the HD650 in terms of what my goals are? Is it possible for you to take a few minutes and compare the M50 to the Denons?

I think I ought to explain why I'm even on this quest for the ultimate headphone in the first place. See, I'm a composer/sound designer, and often I work late into the night and I can't play my Klein + Hummel O300D's that late without the neighbors freaking out. And if you know anything about professional reference monitors, you already know how amazingly accurate the K+H monitors are--they are some of the most respected in the pro audio industry and regularly used in Hollywood production studios. So when working late at night, I would need headphones that can rival the capabilities of my O300D's--which is frankly, almost asking for a miracle. But since I haven't heard all the headphones available out there, I'm hoping that I'm wrong, and there is such a thing as a headphone that could rival a pair of the legendary O300D's.

I think if I could create a hybrid of the M50 and the HD650, taking the best qualities of both, I'd have such a headphone. So that's what I'm doing--hunting for that perfect pair of headphone.

One of the most grueling tests I put headphones through in order to gauge their worthiness (besides the playing commercially CD's, sinewave test tones, and running pink noise through them and measuring with professional spectrum analyzers, is to put them through this test:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f4/wan...ml#post6342773

The M50 passes the test, but with a grade of maybe B-, whereas the O30D's pass with an A+. If the M50's 30Hz region was boost to +5dB or so, it would come close to the O300D's.

Would you be interested in putting the Denons through that test? Maybe a few other headphones you think could pass the test? I swear, if you can come up with a headphone that passes the test with flying colors (and the rest of the its qualities match what I'm looking for), I would become a true believer in that headphones can rival high-end studio monitors.

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

Well, I listened to your test track, and I'm really not sure I know exactly what you're talking about, but I do think the D5000 nails bass pretty well.

 

[plonter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, I listened to your test track, and I'm really not sure I know exactly what you're talking about, but I do think the D5000 nails bass pretty well.

they are bass monsters indeed.
I think there is a problem with the D7000 frequency graph though...
it can't be that they are this flat...or am I wrong? I remember looking at their graph not so long ago just to make a quick comparison between them and the D5000 and from what I remember the graph was different, they were just a little bit lower in the bass than the 5000, and also had less treble energy. now it looks different, more like the K701 frequency response.

please correct me if i an wrong.

 

[Lunatique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, I listened to your test track, and I'm really not sure I know exactly what you're talking about, but I do think the D5000 nails bass pretty well.

It's actually pretty simple. When the drum beat starts at 0:30, the kick drum masks the bass line (playing G notes), but on headphones/speakers with adequately extended sub-bass frequencies, you can still hear the foundation of the G notes--almost like a shapeless bloom of sub-bass energy. Then at 0:39, the bassline changes to the C note, and what SHOULD happen is that all of a sudden, the sub-bass energy just vanishes--like the bottom end of the track just drops out and disappears. The difference is very dramatic when heard on capable devices. The G notes come back again at 0:47 and the pattern repeats.

On headphones that don't have adequately extended and substantial sub-bass, the G note is hard to detect, thus when the bassline changes to the C notes, not much of a difference is heard.

So my question is, which of the Denon headphones reproduce that dramatic difference the most? According to all that I have read, it's supposed to be the D7000, but the graph tells a different story?

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

Okay, I heard what you're talking about this time, but I don't have the Denons at the moment. I'll test it out though.

 

[Lunatique]

Thanks Tyll. BTW, can you also compare the Denons to the ATH-M50? I currently am thinking about upgrading to the Denons from the M50, IF the Denons can outperform the M50 in this particular test.

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

Hi Lunatique

,

So I've tried your test. I think on the D5000 the low bass note is a little less obvious than the M50, I find it's a little more obvious on the D7000. I tried it on the T1 and HD800 also both were a bit less obvious than the M50.

So the M50 does well in this very narrow test.

 

[Lunatique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hi Lunatique , So I've tried your test. I think on the D5000 the low bass note is a little less obvious than the M50, I find it's a little more obvious on the D7000. I tried it on the T1 and HD800 also both were a bit less obvious than the M50. So the M50 does well in this very narrow test.

Thank you so much! That is VERY interesting.

Did you mean the D7000 is a little more obvious than the M50 or the D5000?

So essentially for adequate sub-bass, the M50 really is one of the best out there regardless of price, isn't it? I think you guys really should mention that in your M50 review on the HeadRoom site, as I think even though you guys gave it a full score, you really didn't describe how the M50's are like have subwoofers in your headphones.

If much more expensive headphones like the D5000, D7000, T1, and HD800 aren't really all that much better than the M50 in sub-bass performance, then perhaps I should save my money? (I'm well aware that they will likely outperform the M50 in other departments though.)

BTW, what about the D2000 compared to the M50?

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

Quote:

Did you mean the D7000 is a little more obvious than the M50 or the D5000?

Yes.

Quote:

I think you guys really should mention that in your M50 review

Well .... I'll bet you anything the low note on your test would be even more obvious on the Sony MDR-XB700.

It's such a narrow test that it really doesn't say anything about quality ... it's more about quantity. I think the bass on the M50 is muddled compared to the D5000 even if it isn't quite so obvious.

 

[Lunatique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes. Well .... I'll bet you anything the low note on your test would be even more obvious on the Sony MDR-XB700. It's such a narrow test that it really doesn't say anything about quality ... it's more about quantity. I think the bass on the M50 is muddled compared to the D5000 even if it isn't quite so obvious.

I hear ya--quality is just as important as quantity, but in order for me to make proper mix decision late at night when I can't use my K+H monitors, I do need the headphones to reproduce those sub-bass notes at adequate level or else I can't hear them even if they are there. The horrible mix of the test track was the result of a pair of headphones that couldn't reproduce proper sub-bass quantity (HD555).

It's interesting that you say the D7000's sub bass is even more prominent than the M50, since you think the M50's bass is muddled. Does this mean you feel the D7000 is more prominent in the sub-bass but actually not muddled and very articulate? If so, then I'm definitely buying one!

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

I think the problem is you are concerned with an area of response that headphones just done do very well. (~20-40 Hz) To a significant extent, on speakers these frequencies are as much felt as heard. On headphones you just don't get the chest/nasal cavity compression or bone conducted info that you do with speakers. If you try to compensate on headphones by bumping up the bass, you are just opening the door to other kinds of imbalances or audio distortions.

I think you'd be better served overall by D5000 which is nice and linear with a fairly strong bass (or a HD 800 if you can use open cans) and learn that new acoustic. I simply don't think headphones will do what your speakers do, and if you force the bass issue you'll get errors elsewhere.