Headphones vs. loudspeakers
Jan 5, 2002 at 4:53 AM Post #46 of 74
Quote:

Originally posted by RichardAldrich
My dream? <snip>


That was a post legends are made of. But with all your floor system experience I'm thinking headphones must be just a rest area for you, off the main highway of your audio destiny. Either that or you really do need to acquire the Orpheus and share the experience with us. Heres one you'll never hear though:

purple.jpg


I imported it From Japan; not available in the states. I figure if anything might inspire you to root around for a headphone discovery, this beauty might help do the trick.
 
Jan 5, 2002 at 5:15 AM Post #47 of 74
Dead on Raymond Kim.
I find that I get lost (hypnotized!) into the music when listening through my speakers, but I actually pay attention when listening through headphones.
 
Jan 5, 2002 at 5:42 AM Post #48 of 74
Quote:

Originally posted by RichardAldrich
Crossovers do introduce problems, but great engineers can engineer a speaker that intelligently places crossovers out of the critical areas of our ears sensitivity...


Well, no. Crossovers -- no matter where they are -- have a total effect on the sound. They take the derivative of the incoming signal. That's what I was talking about.

And I'm not even sure that that's the problem. All I know is I like what I hear with headphones, but with speakers, I'm missing that last little bit.

There was an article (I forget where -- audioXpress?) that tried to "undo" what the crossover did. Unfortunately, he had to re-record his CD's to do so (it wasn't linear in the time domain). I think he was half-way there. He recorded one CD. What he needed to do is bi- or tri- amp his speakers, each with a separate source, solved only for its crossover.

But that seems like a lot of work. I have found nirvana in my headphone rig, so I have stopped looking.
 
Jan 5, 2002 at 1:25 PM Post #49 of 74
The biggest difference and main disadvantage of headphones is they don't come close to producing the massive/realistic 3D soundstage a "good" speaker system can. Cossfeed/spatializers don't come close. That is the first thing I notice when going from main system to headphones which produce relatively tiny/flat soundstage. Headphones produce great detail, but believeable 3D soundstage is really lacking.

That is of course why I spend the vast majority of my time listening to main rig, only use headphones when privacy/noise must be controlled.
 
Jan 5, 2002 at 10:36 PM Post #50 of 74
Quote:

Originally posted by DarkAngel
The biggest difference and main disadvantage of headphones is they don't come close to producing the massive/realistic 3D soundstage a "good" speaker system can. Cossfeed/spatializers don't come close. That is the first thing I notice when going from main system to headphones which produce relatively tiny/flat soundstage. Headphones produce great detail, but believeable 3D soundstage is really lacking.

That is of course why I spend the vast majority of my time listening to main rig, only use headphones when privacy/noise must be controlled.


This is weird, because I find when I go from my AKGs, to listening to some better speakers, I find the soundstage small and two dimensional. Another thing that I've found headphones do well, is the imaging of cymbal decay and other complex instruments. Even the complex, fast soundwaves eminating from a crash cymbal appearing from both earpeaces image in every aspect, resulting in a single, ambient sounding crash cymbal. On most lower end speakers ($2000-3000 range) the crash just kindof blops out, having no place in the soundstage.

For example, even on Pink Floyd the wall, listening to Another Brick In The Wall Part 2 when the choir of children start singing, it doesnt just "blob" in from two places, but troughout the front of the soundstage as well. Each consecutive voice is imaging in the soundstage. Same thing goes for clapping in live pieces, etc. It's VERY hard to get a speaker to image precisely enough to perform like this.
 
Jan 6, 2002 at 12:48 AM Post #51 of 74
The thing that I noticed most was that a good headphone system cant reproduce the energy and emotion of a live recording as a good speaker system can.

That's why when my tunes wont disturb others, I just my speaker system solely. I use my headphones+amp when I cant use my speaker system.
 
Jan 6, 2002 at 9:31 PM Post #52 of 74
Crossovers.

Well there are differences in crossovers. I think you are trying to avoid the phase shift and veiling caused by crossovers. An active crossover won't have the same problems a passive one will- you'll find some relief there. Also they type of crossover network- butterworth, 4th order linkwitz reilly etc has a factor.

Of course for manufacturers that means another power supply case etc. unless they build an electronic crossover into the speaker. At that point they may as well build an amp into the speaker as well- .....besides you should be running longer interconnect cable as opposed to speaker cable.

Of course you'll get magnetic interactions unless you design a tall floor stander with the drivers elevated and the amp at the bottom. Lets not forget introducing vibration into the component. Ooops bettter put it back outside.

So what am I saying... it is all a trade off and we have to be careful to chose the trade off that is least offensive to our senses.

So many people are against using EQ for good reasons. A graphic eq will ussually introduce more problems than it's worth- cutting peaks is much better than boosting.. a parametric eq is better and if you are listening to digital you may as well do it in the
digital domain- parametrically.

The attitude is that everything in the signal path degrades the signal and looses something. I am not completely party to this type of thinking. I think items of high quality inserted into the signal path might not do as much damage as the problem they are trying to solve..

As for the pictured phones they look beautiful. How much $$$?

They have to be a Japan only item. Some Americans are so much more price sensitive than some of the Japanese and often buy according to self imposed price points even if it means not getting complete satisfaction. With such small houses and walls of paper (Yeah I know times have changed) headphones are probably a really big plus in Japan.

The Japanese readily accept high quality and are willing to pay a premium for a premium experience- look at their steak and fruits- all on a much higher level than USA stuff. Lots more $$$$$.

I had to buy a Nakamichi 1200 TP (pre-amp and tuner with remote Preamp and viscoelastic damped suspension) it was a Nakamichi "Special Shop" unit (with the tone controls deleted and parts upgrades) in Japan and have it changed over so it can pick us USA FM (we use the odd 101.1, 101.3 etc. frequencies) It is so far ahead of any of the car audio head units that you can buy in the USA. I know from experience if you want to buy a Japanese electronics piece in the USA chances are that in Japan there is a even higher model unit available for sale.

I wanted to buy a Sony Professional Walkman WM-D6C- but I will first check to see if there is a high end Japanese version first. Remember the Sony Bodokan walkman? What happened to these?

Anyhow Speakers will always outperform headphones at the Lunatic fringe..... but only if you position your speakers correctly.

I spent a good part of today installing a 1.2 farad capacitor in my home system to reduce voltage ripple. It really did not make much difference, but then I started going through the pieces of music I use to tune speakers and using the A-B repeat function of my Wadia 860CD player to tweak the positioning.

I couldn't have moved the angle by more than 5 degrees on either speaker. I used some pink noise to get the levels just right. Sent a slow low frequency sweep through the speakers and heard audible buzzing- traced that to loose screws on the driver of one speaker. Then several human voices again AB repeat. Very careful channel balance using a centered human voice. Then back to tuning the toe in properly. Again redo the channel balance until dead center.

So after about 15-20 movements I think ----this just isn't worth it. I've maxed out these speakers. I'm getting all I can. I refuse to think of myself as obsesive compulsive- perfectionist is the term I prefer. Well one more movement and all of a sudden it all snaps into focus. Couldn't have been more than 2 degrees of speaker movement. I had just been overshooting with each adjustment.

I played a breathy female centered singer and messed with the toe in. Too much toed in and the singer loses air and breath, too far out and the singer appears to be coming from 2 distinct sources. The a little fine tuning for getting the singers lisp just right and BLAMMMMMMMMMMO!!!! I hit it. Now I can hear new detail in so much more music....faint back up singers distinct, faint whispers, I greatly enlarged the sizer of the sound stage in depth and the whole recorded venue appearded to be more spacious, I can hear the recording engineer messing with the potentiometers (ooooh great
frown.gif
) but anyhow- you have to really mess with speakers to get it right.

Often the more resolving the speaker- the "more tightly it has to be "focused" with the other speaker. Its like trying to get too lasers the thickness of a human hair to intersect.....but when you do you are in business. Some speakers like many B & W 's are not so sensitive to speaker placement (which is why I do so many of these in high end systems I do for others- some "significant other" or vaccuming chambermaid always messes with placement and ruins it and B & W's won't loose as much of their sound quality if placed poorly as other speakers). But even B & W's will take this ridiculous need for tweakage to get the last 25% of the sound out of the speaker. Unfortunately some high end speakers will lose over 70% of their sonic value if set up improperly. (think Dipoles )

I've got some music playing now and I swear you would think you were in a magnificant cathedral. Every so often while typing this I hear a new sound in a recording I never heard before that adds more layer and nuance to the music- I instinctively look up from my keyboard- I love this.... it is all worth it.

I want this experience in headphones...... I've been after it since I bought one of the first Aiwa Walkman's in 1978. I've watched the quality of portables increase and then plummet. I know there has got to be a better way.

I think a pair of headphones with Nuvistors built into them would eliminate long "speaker" cables . They might prevent you from getting hit by a car at night LOL!
Keep your head toasty warm in the winter.

Anyhow years ago I had a headphone experience that was beyond my speaker experience. Then I upgraded my system and found audio nirvana. I had to sell that system 15 years later (I actually made $$$ on the deal) and ever since then I've felt like an audio orphan.

My speakers ProAc Response 1Sc's can get me some of the way there..... but at times they fall flat on their face. But it is closer than a lot of gear costing a lot more.
Headphones should be the quickest route to audio nirvana..... but I really don't think a lot of the quality is there- except perhaps at the Orpheus level. Headphones have great upper midbass- something that so many speakers seem to be lacking as many sub sats got from a 6 inch driver to a 12 inch driver. Headphones seem fuller in this range.

So if you aren't happy with your speakers- pick up one of the models I mentioned and spend forever tweaking them- you will get amazing sound- (though not with the Acoustic Energy speakers) So many variables though- how wide apart how close to the rear wall how close to the side walls, microscopic toe in and toe out. (Gotta buy breat stands as well... they make as much difference as upgrading two models). Where is the optimal listening position? And then you have to know what to listen for and why......damn its a long path and much more education is needed to reach this level than I would like to think about.

One reward though....... anyone who walks into my house always says it is by far the best sound they have ever ever heard and life like- erie how it is just like massed voices.

but then I get suckered into doing their systems.....

With Headphones I could say... Just buy this. Done.

Speakers are like raw ingredients. You can buy them but without a good chef ---- you may as well eat out.
 
Jan 7, 2002 at 3:52 PM Post #53 of 74
Quote:

Originally posted by RichardAldrich
BTW no offense to the Theil guy he is on the right track.

Go ahead and laugh at the downfall of speakers if you want..... but the scary thing is that The Computer Gaming industry takes in more money than the Music industry- and Gamers buys lots and lots and lots of headphones. Ever listen to a computer game- what frequencies do they emphasize? Ever hear gamers say "don't buy Grados for games"? I have. I hope we don't end up with Headphones voiced for consumers who have computer games as their reference. Large speaker systems are losing out to smaller speakers.


I find it interesting that the gaming industry is larger than the music industry. That is certainly not what I would have guessed. Could you please provide figures and/or sources for that assertion?

The reason for my doubt is that music is very mainstream, while gaming receives very little mainstream coverage: any gaming that does receive coverage is regarding consoles. Also, there are dozens of albums every year that ship over a million copies. It is very rare for PC games to that have that kind of sales.
 
Jan 7, 2002 at 5:50 PM Post #54 of 74
Quote:

Originally posted by RichardAldrich
Well there are differences in crossovers. I think you are trying to avoid the phase shift and veiling caused by crossovers. An active crossover won't have the same problems a passive one will- you'll find some relief there. Also they type of crossover network- butterworth, 4th order linkwitz reilly etc has a factor.

Of course for manufacturers that means another power supply case etc. unless they build an electronic crossover into the speaker. At that point they may as well build an amp into the speaker as well- .....besides you should be running longer interconnect cable as opposed to speaker cable.

Of course you'll get magnetic interactions unless you design a tall floor stander with the drivers elevated and the amp at the bottom. Lets not forget introducing vibration into the component. Ooops bettter put it back outside.

So what am I saying... it is all a trade off and we have to be careful to chose the trade off that is least offensive to our senses.


Sounds like a lot of work. I think I'll stick with my headphones, thank you.

I think the best bet is crossover-less designs such as Reference 3A and the direction WEGG3 is headed. Or an electrostatic. Quote:

The attitude is that everything in the signal path degrades the signal and looses something. I am not completely party to this type of thinking. I think items of high quality inserted into the signal path might not do as much damage as the problem they are trying to solve..


Emphasis mine. Quote:

Anyhow Speakers will always outperform headphones at the Lunatic fringe.....


Again, in your opinion.

(The caveat here is, of course, that your opinion is the only one that matters to you, and mine is the only one that matters to me.) Quote:

...but only if you position your speakers correctly.


Again with the more work. Quote:

I couldn't have moved the angle by more than 5 degrees on either speaker.


See, you don't have that problem with headphones -- the sweet spot follows you!

BTW, regarding placement problems, one word: Shahinians. Quote:

One reward though....... anyone who walks into my house always says it is by far the best sound they have ever ever heard and life like- erie how it is just like massed voices.


Yeah, I get the same comment whenever someone hears my bedroom system -- "gosh, it sounds like they're right there in the room with you!"
 
Jan 7, 2002 at 8:20 PM Post #55 of 74
I'll admit, I had only read parts of this thread.
That is because I know that 90+% will be personal
preference, and personal experience.
I did notice recent comments on speaker placement.
One thing they didn't mention is headphone placement. Appologeze (sic) if this was mentioned and I missed it... Yes speaker placement is critical for the best sound to suite your ears and room. But I think headphone placement can also be critical - you might be amazed how small a movement of phones can effect the sound - just try it...
I prefer speakers. Music is not something to be experienced only with your ears. People keep touting that headphones can't let you feel the bass - can't argue with that, but I think all frequencies are "felt" by not just your ears. These "in ear headphones" I think are horrible, they dont even let your outer ear "hear" the sound - but that is my personal preference and doesn't mean that people who do like these things are wrong.
Lets face it, any decent well driven full range speaker system will make "most people" think this is the best they have ever heard, especially when you are playing music they like.
For me at least, I'll always take a decent pair of speakers over a decent pair of headphones. Unfortunately there are external things that have to affect our decisions - a decent pair of phones is cheaper to buy than speakers, and we can't always drive speakers to realistic listening levels. These contraints make headphones better than speakers sometimes
frown.gif


Oh, and btw I agree one huge potential advantage headphones have over speakers is no need for crossovers. I've never seen an instrument with a crossover. I'd still prefer a less than ideal xover to losing the body sensing of the music, but that might just be me... A properly designed speaker
with good drivers will at least not put an xover in the most used (heard) frequencies. This will depend on your musical choice, and how your ears work. To me that means no xover between 50-5000hz but you may be different.... Driver, and xover, selection is critical - I'd love the lastest quads and amp required to drive them, but alas I have to deal with a speaker system tweaked to my preferences due to the biggest constraint $.

If you want to hear what it "should" sound like spend your money on concert tickets. Even then the you'll find that the sound varies depending on where you sit, which concert hall you are in, what you ate for dinner, and many other things. True reproduction is impossible. You have to choose what you like, then tweak it so you like it more. I would not consider it unusual for a person to prefer the sound of a concert reproduced at hone even when they saw a show live at the "best" seat available and were comparing the experience to a well recorded reproduction of it. To some degree what you think is best is determined by what you are used to hearing, and hopefully less by what other people tell you sounds good.

Do what YOU like. No matter what you do you'll think there is room for improvement. That is why "audiophiles" will spend big bucks buying new stuff to replace what is probably completely adequate hoping they'll find the "truth". Face it, there is no "truth" there is only the search for it. Some people enjoy the search (much to our benefit), some people enjoy the music. I can't afford the time or money to do both, so choose the latter.

my $.02.

David
 
Jan 10, 2002 at 7:36 PM Post #57 of 74
Well the thing that matters is enjoyment of the music. If enjoyment of the music means sounding like "live" music then you might be considered an audiophile. I have never closed my eyes with headphones and felt I was listening to live music. I hope to be soon proven wrong or pointed in the direction of a headphone set that can convince me into thinking I am at a live venue.

Some speakers can make you think for a few moments you were listening to a live event. Truly great speakers might make you were at the event for 40% of the recording. I find that an astonishing accomplishment. Lunatic fringe speakers might make you think you were there for 50% of the time, and if you were not listening very intently or in another room- you might think it was live for more than 90% of the time.

Some things suffer. Horn instruments, true kettle drums,Snares, cymbals, the human voice (you figure if we are able to discern over 1000 human voices - and some through bad transducers ie telephones then we really need accuracy of a very high order to be convinced. As we are hearing very deeply into the signal of the human voice. I doubt we could easily identify several different types of violins over the phone without extensive training- but live we could easily discern them and also it would be easy on a great speaker system.

So for those of you who feel convinced that their headphone systems sound "live" most of the time, please list your components and any tweaks so I may try and follow in your footsteps. This would be greatly appreciated more than you could imagine. I apologize if any of my posts would seem arrogant- it is just the never ending impatientce for the end of the quest for the high end that drives people to the extremes....and drives some to manufacture items. As for hte Weeg # system, I just spent yesterday with Alex Scott who did the rear panel design for those speakers. His old girelfriend is the Brother of Mr. E.

I'm trying to build a Portable headphone amp based on Nuvistors (a tiny tube made by RCA) I want to find out peoples ideas on "ideal voicing". I have my own ideas, but I want to be sure to be aware of others and perhaps incorporate them into this strange little item. Also could you post your sound system so I have an idea of what your speaker, amp, cd, turntable, reference is?

HD600's
Tandberg 3014a tape deck
Wadia 860 Cd player
Bryston 4b
McIntosh amplifers
Audioquest lapis 3 interconnects
ProAc Resonse 1sc
Entec Sw-1 subwoofer (servo controlled (3) 10" drivers with 250 watt powered amp- built by Damian Martin of Spectral fame)
Orsirus 24" stands filled with lead shot

Older reference
Infinity Reference Standard RS 1b's (separate 4 collums speakers with bass towers (8 Emits, 14 Emims, Bass had (6) 8" drivers)
(2) Entec Sw-1s subwoofers
Goldmund turntable
Audible Illlusions 3a pre amp
 
Jan 10, 2002 at 8:31 PM Post #58 of 74
Well, live is cool, but there are a number of downsides. "Live" sounds warm; but muddy, loud; but harsh and generally really flat. Good thing about live is that they give you feeling, but only speakers even come close to tricking me into believing that the sound is being played back live.
 
Jan 10, 2002 at 8:34 PM Post #59 of 74
Quote:

Originally posted by Audio&Me
Well, live is cool, but there are a number of downsides. "Live" sounds warm; but muddy, loud; but harsh and generally really flat. Good thing about live is that they give you feeling, but only speakers even come close to tricking me into believing that the sound is being played back live.


Maybe I should replace the word "live" with "studio"
smily_headphones1.gif


mmm Corrs Unplugged...
biggrin.gif
 

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