[kool bubba ice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nakata /img/forum/go_quote.gif Dear Head-fi, I am a long time reader, first time poster! I am looking for a transparent, non-colored, neutral sound for mixing and engineering music and i though i ask you guys because you seem to know your headphones in and out I wont be using these headphones to lean back and enjoy classical or rock music but studying sound, clarity and stereo image. I am about to buy AKG k702, but i wanted to know if there are any better alternatives in that pricerange. I heard of the HD650/600 but i read in many reviews and threads that it sounds more bassy/round? I want as much detail and neutrality as possible. Also, i chose the k702 over 701 because of the cable. Whats your guys opinion on this? As for the AMP; which one do you guys recomend for the k701/702? Anything between 200$~300$ would do. if any of you out there has a k701/702 amp setup, please share your experiences

The 701/2 are a bit colored, & not as neutral as other studio cans.. If you want to study the music with lots of clarity the 48's are better in that regard then the 701/2..

 

[Peter Pinna]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladstone /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, first of all I'd like to recommend you to use monitors/speakers for checking/editing the stereo image. What type of setup do you have going? What converters are you using? I would recommend the PRO 750 over the AKG K 702 or any other headphone for that matter with a flat headphone amp. I'd advice closed, especially if you're talking about a bedroom studio. How quiet is your room, what type of equipment do you have standing nearby you, how much noise does your computer make, do you work mostly ITB or OTB, what exactly do you want to accomplish? Stereo imaging is only possible on Ultrasone headphones, and only slightly. What type of music do you mostly work with? What do you do?

Gladstone,
What did you mean when you wrote "Stereo imaging is only possible on Ultrasone headphones, and only slightly."
I ask because, if I am understanding you correctly, this statement is not true. What is your definition of "stereo imaging"?
Edit: I also prefer the Ultrasone Pro 750 to the AKG K 701 (I've never heard the 702 but I've been told the sound is very much the same as the 701) for the purposes of the OP. With the K 701, compensating for it's somewhat weak bass end is necessary. With the 750, such compensation isn't necessary as the bass sounds accurate. All of the aforementioned, is, of course, only my opinion.

 

[nakata]

Thank you for more replies!, and sorry for more questions...
Quote:

As sound card I use AK1

Thats what im wondering, these soundcards limit? the frequency response to 20-20k. akg's have 10-39.8k, what gives?
I cant seem to find any information regarding frequency response on amps (looked at the CORDA CANTATE btw

)...
It would be a bitch to use the headphones plugged into the cantate, and that plugged into a PCI soundcard.

Will the EMU-1616M headphone amp work by itself? ( Gain Range: 85dB, Maximum Output Power: 50mW, Output Impedance: 22ohms, Dynamic Range (A-weighted): 118.5dB, THD+N (1kHz, max gain): 600ohm load: -96dB)
or do i need to double connect it with an amp

Quote:

the 48's are better in that regard then the 701/2..

I googled "48" and it didn't give me any headphone results. (PS. be more specific

headphone noob here)
Also, lol at Gladstone.

 

[Gladstone]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Pinna /img/forum/go_quote.gif Gladstone, What did you mean when you wrote "Stereo imaging is only possible on Ultrasone headphones, and only slightly." I ask because, if I am understanding you correctly, this statement is not true. What is your definition of "stereo imaging"? Edit: I also prefer the Ultrasone Pro 750 to the AKG K 701 (I've never heard the 702 but I've been told the sound is very much the same as the 701) for the purposes of the OP. With the K 701, compensating for it's somewhat weak bass end is necessary. With the 750, such compensation isn't necessary as the bass sounds accurate. All of the aforementioned, is, of course, only my opinion.

With stereo imaging I mean being able to place the instruments in the audio spectrum and being able to accurately hear where exactly they are positioned, even if said instrument has a reverb on it that makes it seem far away or is simply lower in volume (and all kinds of other things). Ultrasones position the driver in a way it makes it possible to somewhat get a lockdown on this whereas other headphones, like my HD 650 and K 702 don't. Again I'd advice an accurate pair of monitors/speakers.

@ Nakata
Could you explain why "lol"? I'm trying to help you.

 

[dclancy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nakata /img/forum/go_quote.gif I googled "48" and it didn't give me any headphone results. (PS. be more specific headphone noob here)

They mean Beyer dt 48e. They're becoming quite the FOTM now, although they have quite the history.

 

[Acix]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nakata /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thank you for more replies!, and sorry for more questions... Thats what im wondering, these soundcards limit? the frequency response to 20-20k. akg's have 10-39.8k, what gives? I cant seem to find any information regarding frequency response on amps (looked at the CORDA CANTATE btw )... It would be a bitch to use the headphones plugged into the cantate, and that plugged into a PCI soundcard. Will the EMU-1616M headphone amp work by itself? ( Gain Range: 85dB, Maximum Output Power: 50mW, Output Impedance: 22ohms, Dynamic Range (A-weighted): 118.5dB, THD+N (1kHz, max gain): 600ohm load: -96dB) or do i need to double connect it with an amp I googled "48" and it didn't give me any headphone results. (PS. be more specific headphone noob here) Also, lol at Gladstone.

Kontrol 1 Headphone outputs.

Load Impedance: 8...600 Ohms.
Max Output Level: 4.26 V rms. 100 MW @ 100 Ohms.
SNR : 102.5 db.
THD+N (60 Ohms).
FR: 20-20000 Hz (+0/-0.5 db).

Look like the Kontrol 1 have more volume on the Headphone outputs...
The EMU have better db on the outputs level(118.5dB). but 50 MW. I'm not sure here...

You can try upgrade to the best one, SPL Phonitor...
In Short: Sound Performance Lab

Frequency Response: ‹10Hz to ›200kHz (-3dB).
Dynamic Range: 129,5dB (@ connection with 600 Ohms Impedance).

 

[Peter Pinna]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladstone /img/forum/go_quote.gif With stereo imaging I mean being able to place the instruments in the audio spectrum and being able to accurately hear where exactly they are positioned, even if said instrument has a reverb on it that makes it seem far away or is simply lower in volume (and all kinds of other things). Ultrasones position the driver in a way it makes it possible to somewhat get a lockdown on this whereas other headphones, like my HD 650 and K 702 don't. Again I'd advice an accurate pair of monitors/speakers.

Please understand that this is coming from someone who really enjoys the sound of the Pro 750. As I have written in previous posts, I can attest to the fact that the Pro 750's sometimes produce a periphonic (3-dimensional, seemingly on all sides including top and bottom) sound stage. However, it is an "illusion" and should not be thought of as an accurate representation of sound (pan) positioning as if the sound was originally recorded periphonically (in most cases it was not recorded periphonically). If you want proof of this, listen to a few "live" performance recordings using the Pro 750. In some recordings, the audience will seem to be behind you and the performers will seem to be in front of you which would seem normal. In other recordings, by contrast, the audience will be behind you and some of the performers will seem to be in front of you and to the sides but the drums might sound as though they are being played behind the audience (behind you). And, to make situations even more confusing, sometimes the band will surround you and the audience will seem to be in back and in front of you.
I admit, the sound stage of the Pro 750 sounds, at times, like an accurate and realistic periphonic sound image, but it really isn't. The basic stereo sound imagry (left-center-right) of the Pro 750 is accurate to original "panning placement" if one takes into consideration the idea that some of the sound placements that one would normally hear in the center of the head with non-Ultrasone headphones, could, with an Ultrasone headphone, be heard either in front, back, above or below you (but still in the area of "center"). Other (normally in the head with non-Ultrasone headphones) right or left sounds, with the Pro 750's could be heard outside your head either directly outside of the right or left ear or somewhat to the front of you, to the back of you, either above or below on the right or left side.

 

[alpha80]

People need to STOP shilling for Beyer DT48's.

For your vocalists, during tracking: Sony MDR-7506 Professional
For the engineer (mixing, editing): AKG K-701, Beyer DT-880
For tracking drummers: Sennheiser HD-280

 

[krisjan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nakata /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thank you for more replies!, and sorry for more questions... Thats what im wondering, these soundcards limit? the frequency response to 20-20k. akg's have 10-39.8k, what gives? I cant seem to find any information regarding frequency response on amps (looked at the CORDA CANTATE btw )... It would be a bitch to use the headphones plugged into the cantate, and that plugged into a PCI soundcard. Will the EMU-1616M headphone amp work by itself? ( Gain Range: 85dB, Maximum Output Power: 50mW, Output Impedance: 22ohms, Dynamic Range (A-weighted): 118.5dB, THD+N (1kHz, max gain): 600ohm load: -96dB) or do i need to double connect it with an amp I googled "48" and it didn't give me any headphone results. (PS. be more specific headphone noob here) Also, lol at Gladstone.

in terms of the headphone out from 1616 - let me be honest - a lot of head-fi'ers will turn their noses to the headphone amp of the 1616m insisting that you get an amp, but i think it will be perfectly adequate for a start. I have the emu0202 - it has similar specs to the 1616m, but a lot less output power and less dyn range, and let me tell you to my ears it is a lot more neutral and balanced than my cmoy (using hd595), and i usually have the volume dial around 9 o clock (which is about 1/4 volume)...
i would say get the phones and try the 1616 headphone out - if you feel it is deficient then get something else, but for your purpose it might be overkill at this stage.
re the 10-39.8k - i doubt most people can even hear 20-20k, so never mind the extra frequencies, unless of course it has some additional subconscious effect due to the cells in your head vibrating at ultrasonic frequencies

 

[nakata]

Quote:

For your vocalists, during tracking: Sony MDR-7506 Professional For the engineer (mixing, editing): AKG K-701, Beyer DT-880 For tracking drummers: Sennheiser HD-280

Thank you

Quote:

i doubt most people can even hear 20-20k

I am aware of this, but in what way do they filter this? Do they just cut the frequencies or dither them into the range.. hmm.. im gonna find out

Quote:

i would say get the phones and try the 1616 headphone out

Quote:

a lot of head-fi'ers will turn their noses to the headphone amp of the 1616m insisting that you get an amp

so you would say 85db Gain and 50mW out is enough drive for the k701/702??
Could just stick them into the Main outs because they have more output db or is that a bad idea because of the other specs?

 

[Acix]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nakata /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thats what im wondering, these soundcards limit? the frequency response to 20-20k. akg's have 10-39.8k, what gives?.

There is a low and high frequency roll-off that might be audible to sensitive listeners with very good headphones or speakers.

Whit the SPL Phonitor, I can go easy over 25k.
I compare Ultrasone PL650 vs K702 on the Phonitor.
Funny...The PL650 stop at 22-24k, and the K702 just launch all the way UP.

Yep, the Phonitor pure analog magic...LOL.

The sound cards need a good convertors. D/D D/A (for digital editing).
Mostly you can hear the difference on the sound quality of the cards.

Top cards.

RME, RME: Home
Apogee, Apogee Electronics: Products: ROSETTA 800

 

[krisjan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nakata /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thank you I am aware of this, but in what way do they filter this? Do they just cut the frequencies or dither them into the range.. hmm.. im gonna find out so you would say 85db Gain and 50mW out is enough drive for the k701/702?? Could just stick them into the Main outs because they have more output db or is that a bad idea because of the other specs?

try it and find out for yourself (the headphone out that is - not the mains - that won't work as it's a lower level signal that still needs amplification)...i'm certain it will drive the phones - the issue is an amp just gives more in terms of damping factor/soundstage/etc. - i think it will be sufficient for a start...look at this thread: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/em...mpared-301835/
he's driving his hd650's and says it's fine, and as i've mentioned before those soundcards have weaker headphone outs than the 1616m...look, if you have money to blow go ahead and get a nice amp - that's what i would do - i'm just giving you some options/opinions. (the 85db gain doesn't matter that much in terms of driving power - it is just the range of adjustment that is possible - the 50mW is what matters)

to acix - few adults hear beyond 17kHz (try one of the online tests for yourself)- so even with a roll-off i don't think it's much of an issue - most mics don't go beyond 20-20k, etc. i could go on and on - my point = i don't think it should be high priority in the decision-making process at this stage...

 

[Gladstone]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Pinna /img/forum/go_quote.gif Please understand that this is coming from someone who really enjoys the sound of the Pro 750. As I have written in previous posts, I can attest to the fact that the Pro 750's sometimes produce a periphonic (3-dimensional, seemingly on all sides including top and bottom) sound stage. However, it is an "illusion" and should not be thought of as an accurate representation of sound (pan) positioning as if the sound was originally recorded periphonically (in most cases it was not recorded periphonically). If you want proof of this, listen to a few "live" performance recordings using the Pro 750. In some recordings, the audience will seem to be behind you and the performers will seem to be in front of you which would seem normal. In other recordings, by contrast, the audience will be behind you and some of the performers will seem to be in front of you and to the sides but the drums might sound as though they are being played behind the audience (behind you). And, to make situations even more confusing, sometimes the band will surround you and the audience will seem to be in back and in front of you. I admit, the sound stage of the Pro 750 sounds, at times, like an accurate and realistic periphonic sound image, but it really isn't. The basic stereo sound imagry (left-center-right) of the Pro 750 is accurate to original "panning placement" if one takes into consideration the idea that some of the sound placements that one would normally hear in the center of the head with non-Ultrasone headphones, could, with an Ultrasone headphone, be heard either in front, back, above or below you (but still in the area of "center"). Other (normally in the head with non-Ultrasone headphones) right or left sounds, with the Pro 750's could be heard outside your head either directly outside of the right or left ear or somewhat to the front of you, to the back of you, either above or below on the right or left side.

Peter,

Please keep in mind I do not currently own a PRO 750 (but have had quite a while with them). Ofcourse the 3D surround marketing of Ultrasone is bullcrap, like I said in another topic, it's just more "stereo like". I have never ever had the idea music was played behind (at-the-back-of) my head with an Ultrasone headphone so I lost you right there. I do not perceive Ultrasones as producing 3-dimensional sound (why would you want to have stereo projected as surround in the first place?) at all. I'm not saying they very accurately present the stereo image either just much more accurate than any other headphone simply because of how the drivers are placed. Again, I advice a good pair of monitors or speakers in an acoustically treated room for this. I track, mix and master bands daily (I am a mastering engineer btw).

 

[Acix]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladstone /img/forum/go_quote.gif I track, mix and master bands daily (I am a mastering engineer btw).

Welcome to the club...

 

[kool bubba ice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by alpha80 /img/forum/go_quote.gif People need to STOP shilling for Beyer DT48's. For your vocalists, during tracking: Sony MDR-7506 Professional For the engineer (mixing, editing): AKG K-701, Beyer DT-880 For tracking drummers: Sennheiser HD-280

For vocals the 48's are better then the 7506. No shilling, just a opinion.. You should really use a pair for studio work.