[rgoodnight]

Headphone get a bad rap for causing a lot of hearing damage. A lot of this is justified because it's very easy/tempting to go over the top with volume when wearing cans - since you don't have neighbors banging on the walls or your wife/kids/roommate asking you to "turn it DOWN!".

On the other hand, I found that with a high-quality set of cans and the right amplification you can get aural satisfaction at much lower db levels than with speakers.

Since I have a decibel meter (the indispensable and ubiquitous RadioShack model) I checked my normal listening levels both with speakers and with my main headphones (Sennehiser HD-580 and AKG K-1000).

To take into account the chamber formed by the headphone and the head, I use some styrofoam (sp?) to enclose the sound level meter when measuring the Sennheiser, Since the AKG are open-air I simpy placed the microphone where my ears would be.

In both cases I found that my normal listening levels on headphones are at least 6db lower than with speakers and that I can get very satisfying sound at 70db or less - which I understand is not going to do any hearing damage.

Now, I read somewhere that even at lower sound levels headphones can do more hearing damage because there is no air to "filter out" the sound as there is when using speakers, but this does not make much sense to me.

To summarize: Properly used, headphones will give you a higher degree of listening "satisfaction" at lower SPL (sound pressure level) than speakers.

Since I am concerned about preserving my hearing and I already have some mild tinnitus, this is an important issue to me (and I assume to many people on this board).

What do you all think?

Randy

 

[jirams]

I agree about everything said here (I cannot actually make any measurements) - I have Tinnitus and actually find that I can listen better now, with 'phones - the immediacy of the sound (at around 70dB) masks the hissing off the tinnitus better than on speakers.

Below I quote one of my earlier posts :

In acoustic recordings the balance engineers will have decided on a setup to reflect the event's soundstage. For example, a symphony orchestra is represented over 2 stereo channels and the various sections, strings, brass, woodwinds etc etc are mixed down to the 2 channels hopefully in a manner which correctly represents both the orchestra's sound and the hall acoustic.

When listening to such a recording on 'phones we can set a volume level from a whisper to a ear wrecking deluge - so what is a correct volume level ? Low volume is equivalent to listening to the soundstage from a greater distance than a high volume level. For any given soundstage there must be a particlar volume setting for the phones that is consistent with the width of the perceived soundstage and the hall acoustic. Too loud moves our perception to a close up distance that could not be possible for this soundstage and this creates a conflict in our perception just as too low a level moves us too far away.

I have found that with top quality equipment this effect is very strong indeed and I usually find that the optimum volume level is lower than I would expect to listen at. All this depends greatly on how well the original recording has been caught and balanced.

Non of the above really applies to electronically generated music since this creates a virtual soundstage with few perceptual clues to distance.

So - when listening to an orchestra or band try backing off the volume in the hope of acheiving a greater reality soundstage - its worth a try ??

 

[Skylab]

One way that GOOD headphones are good for your hearing, is using a sound isolating headphone on an airplane or bus or train as opposed to cranking the crap out of a non-isolating earbud to drown out the background sound.

 

[beerguy0]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif One way that GOOD headphones are good for your hearing, is using a sound isolating headphone on an airplane or bus or train as opposed to cranking the crap out of a non-isolating earbud to drown out the background sound.

I would tend to agree with this. I switched to isolating headphones (AKG K271s), and find that I can listen at lower levels than I would with an open headphone. The isolation of the background noise means I'm not trying to mask background sounds with increased volume.

 

[m_memmory]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif One way that GOOD headphones are good for your hearing, is using a sound isolating headphone on an airplane or bus or train as opposed to cranking the crap out of a non-isolating earbud to drown out the background sound.

Definitely.

The number of times that I would be listening to some music at work through a pair of E2c and, when taking them out, realise that the background music of the radio at work was actually louder then the music I'd just been listening to.

 

[spinali]

If you're comparing headphones or IEMs with a floor system, the latter can only be much safer on your ears, day in and day out. But since this is a headphone forum, I'd have to say that it depends on the IEM. Bass-heavy IEMs or headphones, irrespective of make, can really do a number on your ears, especially at higher volumes. An IEM custom is said to let you listen at lower levels, but they also let less of a free flow of noise from your ear, causing ringing.

 

[choariwap]

a note for the K1Ks, you should place a piece cardboard or styro to simulate your head even if its free hanging. the reflections form your head can kick it up by 6 - 10db.

 

[rgoodnight]

Quote:

Originally Posted by choariwap /img/forum/go_quote.gif a note for the K1Ks, you should place a piece cardboard or styro to simulate your head even if its free hanging. the reflections form your head can kick it up by 6 - 10db.

6-10db sounds like a heck of lot, but I'll test it (unfortunately I left the sound level meter at my office). Hopefully I haven't been fooling myself about <70db listening all this time.

 

[MD1032]

Really, the trick is all about restraint. Don't crank it all the time, turn it down to where you can hear everything but it is not louder than ambient noise (depends on the situation, but you know what I mean). If I listened to my pipe organ recordings at full volume, I would go deaf, just the same as if I was sitting where the microphones were placed in the hall. With good audio equipment I can turn things down and still get the effect and hear all of the music.

I agree, 6 db sounds like a large difference. I think perhaps a fake head would be the easiest way to measure that accurately, because when wearing headphones on your head, your flesh is sealing with the foam to pressurize an area around your head, and ultimately, in your ear canals.

 

[Mrvile]

I think IEMs are probably better for your ears than anything else...you listen to those at the lowest volume settings and they still provide top notch immersion...

Anyway, my general rule-of-thumb is if you know there is a sudden loud part in the music you're listening to and you instinctively get nervous or brace yourself, it's a good indication that you need to turn it down.

 

[vYu223]

Since I got my iM716's, my hearing has gotten more acute. With the IEM's, I gradually kept lowering the volume over a long-term period of time (think weeks and months). Now I even listen to open supra-aural cans at a much lower volume.

Listening to the IEM's at a lower level (and challenging myself to keep going lower, going a notch under the comfortable listening volume level) has challenged me to pick out and detect the sounds in my songs and recordings. In this way my IEM's have made my hearing more acute. Using my ER-20's in appropriate situations has also helped to increase my hearing sensitivity.

Headphones are good for you!

(of course, when used properly)

Also, the better the quality of the headphone (or headphones setup), the less you need to turn up the volume in order to be able to hear the music well (that is, in a perfectly quiet environment). For example, when I might borrow someone's headphones (generic, poor-sounding headphones) for a moment (which is rare, because I almost always have my headphones on me

), I would find myself turning up the volume because I could not hear certain things in the music.

 

[jirams]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vYu223 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Since I got my iM716's, my hearing has gotten more acute. With the IEM's, I gradually kept lowering the volume over a long-term period of time (think weeks and months). Now I even listen to open supra-aural cans at a much lower volume. Listening to the IEM's at a lower level (and challenging myself to keep going lower, going a notch under the comfortable listening volume level) has challenged me to pick out and detect the sounds in my songs and recordings. In this way my IEM's have made my hearing more acute. Using my ER-20's in appropriate situations has also helped to increase my hearing sensitivity. Headphones are good for you! (of course, when used properly) Also, the better the quality of the headphone (or headphones setup), the less you need to turn up the volume in order to be able to hear the music well (that is, in a perfectly quiet environment). For example, when I might borrow someone's headphones (generic, poor-sounding headphones) for a moment (which is rare, because I almost always have my headphones on me ), I would find myself turning up the volume because I could not hear certain things in the music.

There is a lot of good sense here

 

[SeagramSeven]

Don't kid yourself for a second, there is nothing healthy about listening to any artificially produced "noise" (or "music" if you prefer), be it over headphones or speakers. They like to publish mindless numbers like, "Oh, if you listen at 80dB, you will damage your ears, but 70dB or less is fine". Nonsense. Pure nonsense.

This is really very simple. You expose your ears to pure silence, they will, over time, become more sensitive to some degree (to a lesser degree if you are older). Expose your ears to constant noise---AT ANY VOLUME LEVEL---and they will get less sensitive over time. This is simply how it is. Listening at a louder level will make your sensitivity decrease much more rapidly, this is true. But if you put your phones on, measure it to 40 or 50dB, which is very low for music, and listen all day, guaranteed you ARE decreasing your ear's sensitivity. It wont diminish as fast as had you listened at 60 or 70dB, but it is still decreasing never the less.

Don't listen for extended periods of time, and when you do listen, keep the volume as low as you possibly can while still maintaining enjoyment. This applies to speakers and headphones alike.

Imagine going a few million generations back...when people still lived in small groups that traveled together living off the land. Any loud noise would typically be very very brief. Most sound you would hear would be ambient noise from nature and animals. Nothing, for the most part, that would really damage your hearing, since even though it is rarely(if ever) 100% quiet in nature, everything is intermittent, your ears get time to rest even if every-other-second some animal is making a subtle sound in the distance.

Fast forward to how people live now, especially in urban areas. There is no rest. Constant noise. Always noise. We don't know what silence is anymore, we say things are quiet when the noise level is lower-than-normal. Even if you never play music on speakers or headphones, your ears are still screwed over the long term in this situation.

Short of airplanes and loud equipment that hopefully wont be running all day and night, rural areas are usually better noise-wise. Plenty of rest time for the ears. Suburbs can vary widely...some almost as noisy as a big city, some almost as quiet as a farm. In the end though, there really is no escape. Simply driving a conventional motor vehicle...car, suv, truck, motorcycle, whatever---is subjecting you to constant noise that will make your ears less sensitive over time. You are not much better off walking or riding a bicycle either since 90% of the time you will still have loud cars whizzing past you anyway.

So to sum it up;

- Headphones (and loudspeakers) are not "good" for your ears.

- More often than not, your ears are being damaged daily, whether you listen to music or not.

- If you want to enjoy music without worrying about hearing damage, do not listen for extended periods of time, and keep the volume as low as you possibly can.

- Eat huge quantities of vegetables & fruits, drink plenty of water, and exercise daily. This will help your ears 100x more than lowering your listening volume a couple dB. In addition to helping your hearing, this last point will prevent or reverse a significant number of health problems many of you are likely facing at this very moment.

 

[redshifter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif One way that GOOD headphones are good for your hearing, is using a sound isolating headphone on an airplane or bus or train as opposed to cranking the crap out of a non-isolating earbud to drown out the background sound.

qft

 

[vYu223]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeagramSeven /img/forum/go_quote.gif Don't kid yourself for a second, there is nothing healthy about listening to any artificially produced "noise" (or "music" if you prefer), be it over headphones or speakers. They like to publish mindless numbers like, "Oh, if you listen at 80dB, you will damage your ears, but 70dB or less is fine". Nonsense. Pure nonsense. This is really very simple. You expose your ears to pure silence, they will, over time, become more sensitive to some degree (to a lesser degree if you are older). Expose your ears to constant noise---AT ANY VOLUME LEVEL---and they will get less sensitive over time. This is simply how it is. Listening at a louder level will make your sensitivity decrease much more rapidly, this is true. But if you put your phones on, measure it to 40 or 50dB, which is very low for music, and listen all day, guaranteed you ARE decreasing your ear's sensitivity. It wont diminish as fast as had you listened at 60 or 70dB, but it is still decreasing never the less.

Well, SeagramSeven, what do you call tinnitus? How does one get tinnitus from exposing him or herself to sound pressure levels above the recommended level, longer than the recommended duration of time (for example, length of exposure over a week)?

If your statement were true, regarding sensitivity, then tinnitus would not exist. On-stage performers without hearing protection would only have a lowered hearing sensitivity (over time). There would be no ringing (although ringing is not necessarily guaranteed in all cases). Also, if your statement were true, hyperacusis (which commonly comes from exposing oneself to excessively high sound pressure levels) wouldn't exist either. Also, hyperacusis is a heightened (albeit generally unwanted) sensitivity to certain frequencies of sound. Therefore, this main cause of hyperacusis goes against your claim that exposing your ears to constant noise at any given volume would lower hearing sensitivity over time. Although your claim is generally true in most cases, there are different cases, such as hyperacusis.

Some people who have been exposed to noises too loud, either suddenly or over time, have scars on their eardrum. The scars would no doubt affect their hearing. Simply putting earplugs in for pure silence 24/7 isn't going to make those scars disappear.

Quote:

They like to publish mindless numbers like, "Oh, if you listen at 80dB, you will damage your ears, but 70dB or less is fine". Nonsense. Pure nonsense.

"They" publish numbers like that because, if you expose your ears to volumes over the recommended levels, longer than the recommended duration of exposure, you WILL damage your ears. Humans learn from their mistakes by trial and error, and other humans learn from those same humans by reading the history they make. People have gotten tinnitus before. There have been complaints. Workers were (and probably still are, but not as much now, as there are more regulations now) losing their hearing. That's why OSHA produced those "mindless numbers" you speak of. These "numbers" have improved working conditions for workers everywhere.

Exposing your ears to pure silence will no doubt increase your hearing sensitivity somewhat, because it eliminates the chance for loud noises to damage your hearing. However, exposing your ears to pure silence would prevent your brain from hearing things. Your brain needs to be challenged and trained to hear certain things. I have a nephew whose ears are more sensitive than mine. However, he cannot detect certain changes in music, such as when the radio stations change the equalizer settings. That is because he was not trained to listen for these things. Lowering the volume of my music a notch or two under the comfortable volume has challenged my brain and trained it to listen harder for certain things in the music, or just sounds at all. That is why my hearing is more acute. I can listen to my open, supra-aural headphones at a lower volume even if there is ambient noise in my environment. That is because I trained my brain... and my hearing became more acute and sensitive.

Quote:

Don't kid yourself for a second, there is nothing healthy about listening to any artificially produced "noise" (or "music" if you prefer), be it over headphones or speakers.

The "artificially produced 'noise'" that comes from headphones or speakers come to your eardrum and all the way to your brain the same way that sounds from a saxophone or drumset would.

From http://www.physicsclassroom.com/mmedia/waves/tfl.html :
Quote:

The back and forth vibration of the tines produce disturbances of surrounding air molecules. As a tine stretches outward from its usual position, it compresses surrounding air molecules into a small region of space; this creates a high pressure region next to the tine. As the tine then moves inward from its usual position, air surrounding the tine expands; this produces a low pressure region next to the tine. The high pressure regions are known as compressions and the low pressure regions are known as rarefactions. As the tines continue to vibrate, an alternating pattern of high and low pressure regions are created. These regions are transported through the surrounding air, carrying the sound signal from one location to another.... Air moleules are continously vibrating back and forth about their original position. There is no net displacement of the air molecules. The molecules of air are only temporarily disturbed from their rest position; they always return to their original position. In this sense, a sound wave (like any wave) is a phenomenon which transports energy from one location to another without transporting matter.

Therefore, the "artificially produced 'noise'" that comes from your headphones or speakers still go to your brain the same way any other sound would, although headphones or speakers cannot produce a perfect representation of sounds from a saxophone or drumset. All of those sound waves go into your brain in the same way. Now that we have established that the "artificially produced 'noise'" that comes from headphones or speakers are "real," we can discuss about their ability to be "healthy" or at least increase one's sensitivity of hearing (when they are used properly). By using my iM716's, I was able to turn down the volume dramatically - down to half of my normal listening volume with other headphones before I started. Also, the impedance of the iM716's is higher than the other generic consumer headphones I was using before I go the IEM's, so that means that my volume was even quieter. I challenged myself to turn down the volume a notch or two under my comfortable listening volume. Over a long period of time, I gradually lowered my "comfortable listening volume." Now when I turn the volume to my "comfortable listening volume" before I got the IEM's, I find the volume to be too loud. Therefore, my hearing sensitivity has been heightened. I have worn earplugs before, but they did not have as drastic an effect, because they did not train my brain to pick out certain frequencies like my IEM's did. This is why headphones are "good for you" when they are used properly.