[Deders]

Hi, just wanted some experienced input on my next headphone choice.  I'll start with a bit of history on my tastes.

I mainly play music from my computer, bitstreamed by JRiver Media Centre to my Sony STR DN1050 Receiver over DLNA network.  I find that for me, over speakers at least (Qacoustics 2000i 5.1) that sending the file over to the receiver via the network gives me better/more pleasing results than even WASAPI/HDMI can produce.

There is something in the way that Sony handles digital audio that has impressed me since I discovered that with a good set of headphones (MDR EX300 at the time, have improved since then) and well encoded Lame V0 mp3's, the NWZ A3000 was way ahead soundwise of any MP3 player I'd ever used previously.  Some were comparing it to the early Cowan mp3 players, but less clinical and more fun.

I've stuck with this and for portable audio, the best I've heard yet is the NWZ A729/A829.  I sometimes check on ebay to see if there are any I can snap up in case something happens to mine.  They sound a little more digital than the A3000, but they did some fantastic phase reversing wizardry with the Bass boost (they called it Clear Bass)  That reminded me of the bass boost in my first portable CD player (also Sony).  Nothing I tried from other brands at the time came close to this, and it took me many years to find the NWZ A3000.   When I first tried the combination of this with the IEM's and V0's  mentioned above, I didn't take them out of my ears for at least 10 hours, re-listening to everything in a new way.  I'm sure we all have our stories of when sound quality really opened up for us.


So I'm looking for a headphone choice for my receiver.  I can't find any info on the headphone output impedance, but the Sennheiser HD 280 Pro's that I'm using now do sound a little soft compared to what I'm used to.  Not sure if this is what people refer to as veiled.  Some say this is typical of Sennheiser, one person said a good headphone amp will sort this out.  That person was talking about 300 ohm HD650's, mine are only 64 ohm.

I'm a bit wary of separate headphone amps.  I once bought a Fiio e9 or thereabouts, and it actually made my Sony mp3 player sound worse (in combination with MDR EX700 earphones, they were already well matched)  the sound signature I knew and loved was coloured and slightly muddier, but I did find a use for it when using it with portable speakers around campfires to either give a bit of a boost, or balance battery life.

Also having a digital DAC kind of defeats the object of bitstreaming DSD type files to the Sony Receiver.  I'm not convinced that much higher than human hearing range makes much of a difference, but my receiver is capable of HD audio playback so it would be nice to experiment.

I have been looking at AKG K550 MKII's.  They seem to provide a great balance of soundstage, audio quality, apparently bit more lively than Sennheiser, they have an extended enough top end, only 32 ohms and comfortable.   I only really need them for home listening.

I looked at some of the Sony earphones but they seem waaay overspec, and don't seem to have the same price/quality ratio of their previous IEM's.  Although a natural boost in the very low end bass would compliment some of the styles I listen to.   I used to prefer my NWZ A3000 completely flat because the quality of the EQ wasn't as good as the NWZ A829, and tended to muddy up the fine detail like the lush reverb on the initial bass sounds on Massive Attack's Unfinished Sympathy.  The A829 was much better at preserving this, not completely, but I was willing to sacrifice a little to have the Clear Bass give tight, well defined oomph to the rest of my songs.

Ideally I don't want to touch the eq on my receiver, it's not as well thought out as Clear Bass, but turning the bass up a notch do make my 64 ohm Sennheiser's a bit punchier, just not at the exact spot I'd prefer.

I mainly listen to heavy Rock (Guns n' Roses and other Slash oriented bands, as well as the classics like Zep, Jeff Beck, Sabbath, Pink Floyd etc)
Wide range of Metal type bands (Pantera, Metallica, Sepultura, Tool, A Perfect Circle, Nine Inch Nails, Incubus, Pitchshifter, Opeth)
Grunge (Pearl Jam, Smashing Pumpkins, Alice in Chains)
modern progressive rock (the Mars Volta, 65 days of static,)

I also have a penchant for Funk (some Herbie Hancock, Kool and the gang. Stevie Wonder)

I would like to be able to enjoy classical music to it's fullest (or as close to) on occasion

I also like fast aggressive dance music, Jungle/Drum n Bass/Breakcore (like Venetian Snares/Squarepusher) very occasional Dubstep, so a nice deep full bass would compliment this well, so long as it doesn't overwhelm other frequencies.

I wear glasses at home, not sure how different size cups will pressure my ears onto their arms.

Can anyone think of any headphones that might better suited than the AKG AK550 MKII's? 

Considering my bitstreaming ideals, are there any headphone amps that would enhance and not detract?  would they be necessary at 32 ohms?

I could go up to around £350 if needs be for either headphones, or both.

Thanks in advance.

 

[serman005]

Since you are going to be listening at home, are you open to an open headphone? It will have better soundstage and imaging. Also, have you looked into the fit of the K550 II? It can sometimes be a problem for people. Lastly, are you a bass person? The K550 II is not a bass-heavy can, just fyi.

 

[Deders]

This is the choice I'm divided over the most, not even sure there is a choice.

Yes I love bass.  I love my sub (neighbours and anyone directly below it, not so much.)

If there is a set of phones that behave like the Clear Bass in the Sony a729/a829, or my sub, providing a clear tight natural boost without interfering with the other frequencies (I do appreciate a flat-ish response overall, not afraid of a little colour if it is pleasant) then I will be very interested in something like that.

I'm more into a very low end boost than an upper bass/lower mid boost. my speaker crossover is set to 80Hz if that translates over to headphones?

Given the choice between the 2, I'd choose the full extended depth/range of bass, rather than a cheap sounding bass boost done badly, or anything resembling that end of the spectrum.

Like I mentioned before, I kept my NWZ A3000 completely flat to preserve the detail in things like the reverb on the bass at the beginning of Massive Attack's Unfinished Sympathy.  On this, the low bass extension was preferable to how the EQ settings affected the sound.  The newer players with Clear Bass are another story (although I had to return a Sony A865 because the sound sig had changed so much)

Open backed earphones would be welcome.  Really appreciate a great soundstage.  I was under the impression the AKGK550 range were able to give this despite being closed back?

I was also under the impression that the MKII's tighter fit keeps the bass from leaking out as much around the cushion.

I could probably give round the head/ear measurements if that helped?

 

[serman005]

In order to provide the bass foundation you are looking for, the first open can I think you should look at is the Philips Fidelio X2. I think this headphone could work for you. Another open one that might work is the HiFiMAN HE400i. Both these hp have good bass extension for open cans. I don't think HD600 or 650 will be ideal for metal/hard rock, which is why I am not including them. Other people might disagree.
 
The first closed one I think you should look at, other than the K550 II, is actually the VMODA m100, which has excellent sub bass extension and is a quality can overall. It's like having a small subwoofer in your headphones. Two other closed ones to look at are the NAD HP50 and the Oppo PM-3 (both superb and both ++ more neutral than the m100).
 
You might read about some or all of these and see what you think. All could work, given circumstances.

 

[Deders]

Thank you so much, looking forward to researching these when I get a chance, a bit later.

 

[Diggymen]

How much budget do you spent for headphone?
If you have enough budget for Audeze sine is good for you

 

[Deders]

I could stretch to that if it looks worth the extra investment.

Wow, such a range of great choices. Really helped me narrow things down, but at the same time, so much to take in. At one point I thought I was going to have to start a collection of headphones, but I think I might manage with just the 1, (plus the Sony 9.1 surround for nighttime movies/games, and maybe eventually a purely flat pair, plus an upgraded IEM for out and about.... Oh heck, it's started hasn't it!)

In the mean time, I'm going to have to make a pro's and con's spreadsheet. I have a feeling the con's section is going to be quite empty.

 

[Monsterzero]

. At one point I thought I was going to have to start a collection of headphones, but I think I might manage with just the 1,

Said every member to this forum when they first started...lol

Good luck with that!

 

[Monsterzero]

There is an upstart company releasing a new headphone,its still in the Kickstarter phase,but its receiving overwhelming glowing reviews.

Check this thread here,might be up your alley. Be sure to scroll down a bit and watch the review one of our resident bass authorities did on the prototype.

Im gonna be checking them out at the HeadFi meet in New York in June.

 

[Deders]

  Said every member to this forum when they first started...lol

Good luck with that!

 
Maybe someone could arrange a deal with various headphone companies so that after X amount of headphone sales generated from this site, Head-Fi receive some customised headphone storage racks they could then send out to members clearly in need?

  There is an upstart company releasing a new headphone,its still in the Kickstarter phase,but its receiving overwhelming glowing reviews.

Check this thread here,might be up your alley. Be sure to scroll down a bit and watch the review one of our resident bass authorities did on the prototype.

Im gonna be checking them out at the HeadFi meet in New York in June.

This looks very interesting.  A little similar to the way IEM tips work with the bone around your ear (I swear when using a sine generator, I could feel 5Hz with my MDR-EX700's, just not around the rest of my body)

Talking of which, how many of these strapped around various parts of our bodies are we going to need to replicate the full rave/club style sound system experience?

 

[Monsterzero]

   
Maybe someone could arrange a deal with various headphone companies so that after X amount of headphone sales generated from this site, Head-Fi receive some customised headphone storage racks they could then send out to members clearly in need?

This looks very interesting.  A little similar to the way IEM tips work with the bone around your ear (I swear when using a sine generator, I could feel 5Hz with my MDR-EX700's, just not around the rest of my body)

Talking of which, how many of these strapped around various parts of our bodies are we going to need to replicate the full rave/club style sound system experience?

Right!

the thing that appeals to me about those is the bass response is separate from the driver,so youre getting world class bass,which is adjustable depending upon tastes,and at the same time a full frequency from the mids/high/bass from the driver.

Anytime you get into bass heavy headphones,another frequency,usually the mids,is punished.Apparently that isnt the case with these.

The fact that a hardcore metal and classic rock fan like myself is interested in these,says a lot.

 

[Deders]

 
Right!

the thing that appeals to me about those is the bass response is separate from the driver,so youre getting world class bass,which is adjustable depending upon tastes,and at the same time a full frequency from the mids/high/bass from the driver.

Anytime you get into bass heavy headphones,another frequency,usually the mids,is punished.Apparently that isnt the case with these.

The fact that a hardcore metal and classic rock fan like myself is interested in these,says a lot.

Yeah, I think that's the important difference.  Much of the best boosted bass tends to come from the amp/device the headphones are plugged into, so pairing something like this with near reference clarity makes perfect sense.

Most of my friends would look at me funny for even suggesting a few years back that spending £40 on a set of in-ear phones would make a huge difference to the music they listen to (but the few who tried were impressed) not that many of them could afford £40 on headphones at the time, and neither could I really but I was prepared to go without for a short time to get them.

But I do have friends who have successfully transitioned from providing music in the free party scene, to becoming fully legitimate sound system hire for venues and festivals.  I'm sure they know an entire network of people who would be personally interested in knowing or helping a product like this to exist, so long as it didn't eat into their business, hence my previous ponderings.  It's not as if their business is based around solitary listening. (Anne Summers might even want to get a look in).

Is there really only 20 days left before the become unviable?

As a metalhead, what are your thoughts on the suggestions so far?  The Phillips X2 seem like good reference point.  If any improvements can be made on that, then I'm all ears.

I was looking at the V-Moda m100 before I realised there was a paragraph above mentioning the X2 (phone cut it of when I tilted the screen) As much as the bass on that sounds fantastic, some complained of less detail in the upper bass/lower mid range.  I figured that they might be more used to a flat response all round (considering individual taste in sound is often comparatively subjective to what you are used to hearing), and I do currently have the Clear Bass maxed, with a slight cut at 400Hz on my MP3 player that gives more emphasis the the Clear Bass range. (A tip I got from an underground club DJ friend.  It works for him, and it works for me).

Many of the rave reviews for these where from people who claimed to own between 1 and 4 sets of Beats (some also had more reputable sets) I tried not to laugh when I read the one with 4 sets, I really did, but something tickled my throat at that exact moment just enough for my wry smile to turn into a laugh whilst holding back enough air to stop it becoming an actual cough.  It was as if God him/Herself gave me a nudge.

Seriously though they seemed impressive, but one member on here said:

"I wouldn't get the m100's they do not respond fast enough for blast beats and fast double bass sections I've spent a little time with them and the lp2's and really like them but mostly for dubstep and electronic music... I find them muddy when music gets fast...".

I'm not so into blast beats as such, but I do love a lot of Vinnie Paul and Chris Kontos etc, as well as some extremely busy breakcore with plenty of sub bass, that does sound best with responsive speakers.  I don't really know how much that might improve with burn in?

In the end there seemed to be too many niggles, whereas the Phillips X2 have virtually none.  Going to take a proper look at the rest in a mo.

 

[Deders]

After listening and reading a lot of peoples opinions and comparisons, I've learned quite a bit and now seem to be leaning towards Diggymen's suggestion for the Audeze Sine.

It seems to combine the tighter bass and detail of the HiFiMAN HE400i compared to the Phillips X2's, but still sound lively and has great imaging  I'm starting to think for my kinds of music that imaging and clarity is more important than soundstage.

My previous experience (apart from with speakers) with soundstage with my IEM's was that the L&R were further apart than anything I'd heard and analysed previously, giving sounds and instruments more room to breathe, and allowing for better separation.  I've heard some open backs that provide a more forward projecting soundstage, but only for short periods, and not with my own music.

I'm a little confused as to what I want, and different people's interpretations have added to that.  What kinds of recordings and styles in general would benefit with an open back kind of soundstage?

Someone described the V-MODA m100's soundstage as being forward and narrow, someone else made the comparison of instead of being in the room with musicians (like you would expect from open backs) it was more like being about 5th row from the front at a concert/gig.

I am liking how people describe Planar based headphones, and the Sine's seem to be the most popular when people compare them to similarly priced Planar sets, even before the burn in period is finished.  They've only been available for a month, but I'm still halfway through the huge thread on here and a couple of others so..... be back soon.

 

[Monsterzero]

 

Is there really only 20 days left before the become unviable?

As a metalhead, what are your thoughts on the suggestions so far?  The Phillips X2 seem like good reference point.  If any improvements can be made on that, then I'm all ears.

I really dunno what will happen.I keep spreading the word when folks here are looking for bass.Theyre coming to HeadFi meet in NY in june,which is after the Kickstarter ends,so I dunno what their plans are if they dont meet their goal.

As far as your second question goes,I have been through quite a few headphones and amps to find a kickass rock and metal presentation.

I do not own the X2,but I do own the X1 which is quite similar.I love my X1s for gaming and deep trance,not for metal.

The mids are too recessed and theyre too slow for me.On new-ish metal (Pantera,Parasite Inc)the bass sounds impressive.On older metal(Priest,Thin Lizzy,Scorpions,Motorhead,Maiden)the mids arent pronounced enough to bring vocals and guitars to the forefront.the bass isnt fast enough to dissect speed runs on the double kicks...it comes out as a rumble as opposed to individual lightning quick strikes.

Other headphones I have used and didnt like for rock/metal

Sennheiser 600-too laidback
Sennheiser 650-too laidback,too slow,bass hump was muddy sounding.
Beyer 770 250 ohm-highs too sharp,mids too recessed,too slow
Beyer 990 600 ohm-too polite for metal
Beyer T1-Too polite for metal with tube amp,bass too boomy on SS amp
SennGrado-Too much midbass distortion

Headphones that I currently use for rock and metal:

FLAC Files>AIMP3 player>computer soundcard>Schiit Magni Uber>Alessandro Ms2e.....nice detail,sufficient bass response,pretty fast,nice upfront mids.

I do use the AIMP3 EQ to help the Ms2e,bass boost,slight mid reduction,slight lower high boost.....I tried 3 different types of pads,and 4 different amps before I settled on this configuration.Its not perfect.The Ms2e arent comfy,and can get fatiguing after awhile,but if I spend any more $$ on audio equipment right now my wife will toss me out on the street.

My preferred setup for metal is my home system which is:

FLAC files>Sony HAP S1>Vintage(1974)Sansui 881 receiver>ATH AD2000(original,not "X")

This config is heavenly!

The AD2000s were recommended to me just a month ago by another member.Theyre very hard to find as theyre discontinued and were only released in Japan.I lucked out and found a pair in the For Sale section from a member living in S.Korea.

Theyre lightning fast headphones,however they have ZERO midbass,to the point that they actually sound hollow...which left me feeling like I made a mistake getting them.They slice through the fastest metal you can toss at them,guitars are in your face,and female vocals are breathtaking.But that hollow sound was very disappointing.

Going back to hollow sound...theyre VERY amp picky.Theyre easy-ish to drive,but not easy to find synergy.
Thru mobile devices=hollow
Thru HAP S1 headphone out=hollow
Thru Woo Audio WA2=messy,not good
Thru Rogue Audio Cronos Magnum headphone out=too underpowered
Thru Schiit Magni Uber=hollow

Thru Sansui 881 headphone out=Pure audio bliss! I have never heard headphones sound this good!!!
Listening to classic rock is like listening to liquid honey...rich,full,crystal clear,imaging,soundstage,speed,tight ample bass...everything.
On metal,see above and add aggressive, in your face attack.

I picked up this receiver off of Craigslist for 125.00.I picked up the AD2000s for 335.00 used.This config absolutely destroys my WooAudio WA2+Beyer T1 combo that cost me 2400.00!
The only thing I like more on my T1+WA2 combo is theyre more airy and have a slightly wider soundstage.

Regarding Audeze Sine...never heard them so I cannot comment.I did audition LCD2s and found them too slow,and that bass hump did not appeal to me.


There is a reason why the Grado/Alessandro line is often recommended for rock and metal...they are not amp picky,they are quite fast,and quite forward.The comfort issue can be problematic though,and I wouldnt use them for EDM.

I doubt that this post will help you much in deciding what to get.This hobby can be frustrating,reading glowing reviews and getting less than glowing results.The important thing to remember is each piece of equipment used in any review is almost as important as the headphones themselves.Use a different amp or source/DAC or cable and YMMV.





 

 

[Deders]

Absolutely agree with your last paragraph, and was bearing that in mind when reading all those different opinions.

Did you try the first LCD2's or the 2nd revision?  and do you know what kind of equipment they were demo'd on?  I've read reviews that say the Sine's bass response/eq does change when adding a headphone amp to an iPhone for instance, and that there are some changes that happen naturally over time.  Many have commented that the bass response is very tight.  If this isn't tight enough for me, I don't want to think how much I'd have to spend to get what I'm used to.  It's great when you find a bargain combination that outperforms equipment in higher price brackets!

Thanks for the tips on what to avoid.  It seems we have the same tastes/reasoning with Sennheiser that will resonate with other brands, especially if tested through our Sony 'Hi Res' equipment which I believe (could be wrong) the basic module is similar throughout their range, although it could have a few tweaks further up the line, as well as other tweaks in the signal chain within their units (which will eventually trickle down into more reasonably priced models).  I believe ours were released at around the same time.

Curious as to what is so different (apart from the tubes, or maybe they do have something to do with it) about the Sansui 881 output compared to other equipment, for those phones?

Found a couple of interesting comments in a review for LCD4's on Innerfidelity:
 
"Bass - Most open headphone have troubles getting good bass extension; many sealed headphones get good extension, but few do so without some lack of coherent clarity. The LCD-4 pretty much nails it in the bass. Tight, clean, flat, and extended. Of course, I tend to like a little (3dB or so) bass elevation below 120Hz, but no open headphone that I know of can even draw a flat line below 100Hz, much less have a bit of boost. The quality of the LCD-4 bass is so good that it will easily take any EQ you want to throw at it. EDMers beware: You can knock a tooth out with this headphone.

The Sennheiser HD 800 S with its slight bass distortion and typical roll-off down low for a dynamic headphone is no match at all. Relative the the HiFiMAN HE1000, Mr. Speakers Ether, and Audeze LCD-3/X the call was closer, but I found the LCD-4 doing a better job of producing a natural transition from bass to mid-range. During an acoustic bass solo, the other cans seemed to disconnect the low note itself from the higher frequency sounds of finger plucking and strings clicking against the fingerboard. With the LCD-4 these sounds came together to become the connective tissue portraying the entirety of the whole instrument."

 
......
 
"Lots of learning and technological development for the LCD-4 ended up in the SINE, and it, so far, seems to have come together in decent and price-realistic fashion."

Thankfully over in the EU we have a 14 day return window on any electronic product purchased online, and one of Audeze's official suppliers is a company I quite often go to for computer equipment so I think I'll give them a try.