[luckybaer]

The Vali 2 headphone amp has a tube front end, so not surprising that some clarity and micro-dynamics is lost compared to a pure solid-state design. I don't know much about the Magni 3, but you can't ask for a lot from a $109 amp.

In my experience, buying amps based on price is a mistake (if one is assuming the higher priced ones sound better). I originally bought the $600 Singxer SA-1, but sold it quickly because it sounded "veiled" compared to the $199 Schiit Magnius (or even the headphone outputs of an old mas-market receiver

The Vali 2 headphone amp has a tube front end, so not surprising that some clarity and micro-dynamics is lost compared to a pure solid-state design. I don't know much about the Magni 3, but you can't ask for a lot from a $109 amp.

In my experience, buying amps based on price is a mistake (if one is assuming the higher priced ones sound better). I originally bought the $600 Singxer SA-1, but sold it quickly because it sounded "veiled" compared to the $199 Schiit Magnius (or even the headphone outputs of an old mas-market receiver).

I was tossing out thoughts on higher end amps vs. less costly products.

Regarding Vali 2, a more apt comparison would be to my Quicksilver, but that will be another mismatch, and not entirely apples to apples, as Vali 2 is a hybrid, and QSHA is SET (I believe).

I think the entry Schiit products probably get me 80-85% of what the more pricey amps get me. That makes them good deals and good products. They serve as desktop components for me, while the Taurus and QSHA sit with my full-sized, “big person” gear.

 

[Mark200]

I was tossing out thoughts on higher end amps vs. less costly products.

Regarding Vali 2, a more apt comparison would be to my Quicksilver, but that will be another mismatch, and not entirely apples to apples, as Vali 2 is a hybrid, and QSHA is SET (I believe).

I think the entry Schiit products probably get me 80-85% of what the more pricey amps get me. That makes them good deals and good products. They serve as desktop components for me, while the Taurus and QSHA sit with my full-sized, “big person” gear.

I don't think one can directly compare pure solid state with tube amps. There is always going to be inherent differences in the sound. With tube amps, one gets more musicality at the expense of low distortion and micro-detail. I am not trying to say which one is better, because I think a lot depends on the particular recording that one is listening to.

But within each type of amp, there is general tendency to assume that the more expensive ones sound better. I would only accept that if I could see the results of a double-blind test being performed by someone who knows how to make sure there is no bias in the test, and that the sample size is statistically significant.

 

[luckybaer]

I don't think one can directly compare pure solid state with tube amps. There is always going to be inherent differences in the sound. With tube amps, one gets more musicality at the expense of low distortion and micro-detail. I am not trying to say which one is better, because I think a lot depends on the particular recording that one is listening to.

But within each type of amp, there is general tendency to assume that the more expensive ones sound better. I would only accept that if I could see the results of a double-blind test being performed by someone who knows how to make sure there is no bias in the test, and that the sample size is statistically significant.

Makes sense.

 

[bagwell359]

My Schiit Magnius headphone amp ($200) has exceptional clarity and microdetail when used with balanced connections, even to the point where it may be too much detail for mediocre recordings.

As far as soundstage and depth, I personally don't believe that can be improved by an amp from the original recording, except to degrade it, and I can guarantee that the Schiit Magnius does not degrade either of those. Soundstage and depth are more properties of headphones and speakers, rather than amps. Obviously, the soundstage and depth properties of the original recoding dwarfs any changes made by electronic equipment.

Some people prefer tubes for their softer sound, and I don't necessarily criticize that because there is a lot of poorly record and engineered music these days that is designed be played via cheap earbuds, and sounds too harsh when played on well-deigned and accurate solid state equipment. There are some solid-state amps that try and emulate the softness of tubes, but that detracts from their clarity and microdetail.

There are some interesting claims here. can you describe some of the amps you got to know to be able to make them?

Ahhh I see you answered that question. More details on the old days - here or PM if you are in the mood.

 

[bagwell359]

I don't think one can directly compare pure solid state with tube amps. There is always going to be inherent differences in the sound. With tube amps, one gets more musicality at the expense of low distortion and micro-detail. I am not trying to say which one is better, because I think a lot depends on the particular recording that one is listening to.

But within each type of amp, there is general tendency to assume that the more expensive ones sound better. I would only accept that if I could see the results of a double-blind test being performed by someone who knows how to make sure there is no bias in the test, and that the sample size is statistically significant.

Do you think that tube amps that put out 50 wpc or more have the same issues as pre-amp tubes? Hybrids?

 

[Mark200]

There are some interesting claims here. can you describe some of the amps you got to know to be able to make them?

Ahhh I see you answered that question. More details on the old days - here or PM if you are in the mood.

When I said I have been listening to very high-end equipment for 50 years in audio store showrooms or Hi-Fi shows, that doesn't just mean 50 years ago, it means continuously for 50 years.

But speakers and the amps that drive them are different than headphones and headphone amps, and fortunately one can buy extremely high quality headphone gear for a lot less than extremely good audio equipment meant for listening through speakers.

Even though I believe that very expensive amps like Boulder (which can cost over $350K for a pair of mono-blocs) are extremely good to my ears, I just don't always assume that more expensive gear is better than less expensive gear. Sometimes it is, and sometimes it is not (to me ears)

 

[Mark200]

Do you think that tube amps that put out 50 wpc or more have the same issues as pre-amp tubes? Hybrids?

Tube amps sound different than solid state amps. Hybrid amps are typically in the middle of those two in the way they sound. It doesn't really matter what the output power rating is. Obviously, one can also tweak the sound of tube amps by using different tubes.

Solid state amps are typically more detailed and have better clarity with lower distortion than tube amps (regardless of the output power). But tube amps have a magical quality that seems to make them sound more musically appealing to many listeners, even at the expense of distortion and lack of micro-detail compared to solid state.

I am not suggesting that a cheap tube amp sounds as good as an expensive tube amp. Usually the expensive tube amp sounds better, but not always. But the distinction between a $200 solid state headphone amp and $600 solid state headphone amp is a lot harder to discern in a blind listening test. In fact, I have fond that some expensive solid solid state headphone amps add circuits to try and make them sound more like tube amps, at the expense of clarity and micro-detail.

I think one of the most interesting designs (for headphone amps or speaker amps) is a hybrid design with a tube pre-amp stage and solid state power amp stage. I would be very interested to hear the Schiit Lyr+.

 

[bagwell359]

When I said I have been listening to very high-end equipment for 50 years in audio store showrooms or Hi-Fi shows, that doesn't just mean 50 years ago, it means continuously for 50 years.

But speakers and the amps that drive them are different than headphones and headphone amps, and fortunately one can extremely high quality headphone gear for a lot less than regular audio equipment meant for listening through speakers.

Even though I believe that very expensive amps like Boulder (which can cost over $350K for a pair of mono-blocs) are extremely good to my ears, I just don't always assume that more expensive gear is better than less expensive gear. Sometimes it is, and sometimes it is not (to me ears)

I agree with that. I couldn't justify spending more than the $2500 I spent on each of two used Pass X-150's, although the Krell KSA-100 was pretty magic with the Apogee's. Transducers are certainly where it is at for investment, and yes people are swayed by brand names, money, and the opinions of others.

I started in 1966 due to my fathers Quad ESL system and regular visits to the BSO. Bought my own first stereo in '74, worked part time in audio in college, then a couple of years after at a high end shop, and changed equipment every month for some time. Invested in a high end shop and had access to all the toys for some time too, then morphed into building and modifying listening rooms.

 

[bagwell359]

Tube amps sound different than solid state amps. Hybrid amps are typically in the middle of those two in the way they sound. It doesn't really matter what the output power rating is. Obviously, one can also tweak the sound of tube amps by using different tubes.

Disagree. Unless you are talking Jadis etc. $20k+ tube amps of the large size they cannot produce bass in the same way they produce mids. That's what killed tubed amps for me. OTOH pre-amps and amps using small signal tubes are able to do so - IMO.

Solid state amps are typically more detailed and have better clarity with lower distortion than tube amps (regardless of the output power). But tube amps have a magical quality that seems to make them sound more musically appealing to many listeners, even at the expense of distortion and lack of micro-detail compared to solid state.

Magical quality? THD is most of it. Too much is smudgy, The right amount helps make up for the lack in any and all recording techniques. But its still an approximation to music. I owned an ARC SP15 that was pretty detailed, and the Schiit Freya isn't too bad either.

I am not suggesting that a cheap tube amp sounds as good as an expensive tube amp. Usually the expensive tube amp sounds better, but not always. But the distinction between a $200 solid state headphone amp and $600 solid state headphone amp is a lot harder to discern in a blind listening test. In fact, I have fond that some expensive solid solid state headphone amps add circuits to try and make them sound more like tube amps, at the expense of clarity and micro-detail.

I can imagine. Got any specific examples?

I think one of the most interesting designs (for headphone amps or speaker amps) is a hybrid design with a tube pre-amp stage and solid state power amp stage. I would be very interested to hear the Schiit Lyr+.

The Lyr+ is very nice. I still like my Ragnarok 1 more however. and I like the Violectric v281 even more. But I haven't heard that many headphone amps since I went primarily headphone in '16. Downsized majorly, and my big project this month is rebuilding the xovers and making my 3 way Triangle speakers that are WWMT to WWMTM.

 

[Reputator]

When I said I have been listening to very high-end equipment for 50 years in audio store showrooms or Hi-Fi shows, that doesn't just mean 50 years ago, it means continuously for 50 years.

But speakers and the amps that drive them are different than headphones and headphone amps, and fortunately one can buy extremely high quality headphone gear for a lot less than extremely good audio equipment meant for listening through speakers.

Even though I believe that very expensive amps like Boulder (which can cost over $350K for a pair of mono-blocs) are extremely good to my ears, I just don't always assume that more expensive gear is better than less expensive gear. Sometimes it is, and sometimes it is not (to me ears)

Unfortunately your experience with speakers doesn't really apply to headphones WRT staging. Speakers actually stage, headphones can only sort of emulate it. And your experience with headphones and headphone amps seems too limited to back up your claims.

I didn't really get a GOOD staging amp until I got the Lyr+. I got some moments of eerie holographic sound out of my Corda Classic, but not at the level and consistency that Lyr+ does. That's after being in this hobby for 17 years and going through nine different amps. You don't truly know what's possible out there until you've heard it.

 

[Mark200]

Disagree. Unless you are talking Jadis etc. $20k+ tube amps of the large size they cannot produce bass in the same way they produce mids. That's what killed tubed amps for me. OTOH pre-amps and amps using small signal tubes are able to do so - IMO.

I think there is some confusion about headphone amps versus speaker amps. The OP asked about headphone amps. All I said was that solid state amps tend to sound different than tube amps. That is an advantage is some aspects, and possibly a disadvantage in other aspects.

The original question was about upgrading from $200 solid state amp to a $600 solid state amp, and based on my experience I would be leery about expecting that teh more expensive one to be noticeably better, even though every YouTube reviewer will say the more expensive one is better. Sometimes the more expensive one may be better, but not always in my experience (I mentioned my experience with the $600 Singxer SA-1 as an example).

Making comparisons even more complicated is that companies like Schiit probably have a price advantage compared to most other brands due to their direct sales to consumers, with no transportation costs from China, import/customs issues, US distributor costs, etc to worry about.

 

[Mark200]

Unfortunately your experience with speakers doesn't really apply to headphones WRT staging. Speakers actually stage, headphones can only sort of emulate it. And your experience with headphones and headphone amps seems too limited to back up your claims.

I didn't really get a GOOD staging amp until I got the Lyr+. I got some moments of eerie holographic sound out of my Corda Classic, but not at the level and consistency that Lyr+ does. That's after being in this hobby for 17 years and going through nine different amps. You don't truly know what's possible out there until you've heard it.

I don't believe I made any claims other than to say that I would not believe other people's claims unless they can back that up with a double-blind test conducted by someone who knows how to do it correctly, with sufficient sample size to ensure statistically significant conclusions.

Despite what you may think, I have been listening to headphones over a long period of time. Most of my headphone listening has been on brands I owned, which are various Stax and Sennheiser headphones, but I have listened to many headphone brands in high-end stores.

The issue of amplifier staging, sound stage, depth, etc, is way overblown IMO. These things are much more of a factor of the recording and the quality of the headphone (or speaker), rather than the amplifier. If you thought I was saying that staging, etc didn't vary much between different headphones, I don't believe I ever said or implied that. The original question was about headphone amplifiers, and I am highly skeptical that a headphone amplifier has any noticeable effect on staging, unless the amplifier has deliberately degraded the channel separation (or something) on purpose to achieve a sound they think is better.

A lot people talk about soundstage width, depth, and other characteristics. What I value is soundstage accuracy, not maximizing those things. If the actual soundstage of the musicians being recorded is x, and an amplifier or headphone can make it x + y, then I wouldn't judge the wider soundstage (x + y) to be "better".

I think there is a lot of discussion about soundstage with regard to headphone amps because that allows the YouTube reviewers to talk non-sense for a longer period of time and therefor potentially receive higher monetization from their YouTube videos.

 

[HWB3]

Vali 2++. Never had a tube amp before. Been listening on a Schiit Multibit 2 into Sennheiser HD6XX's for the last five hours. No complaints here.

 

[bagwell359]

I think there is some confusion about headphone amps versus speaker amps. The OP asked about headphone amps. All I said was that solid state amps tend to sound different than tube amps. That is an advantage is some aspects, and possibly a disadvantage in other aspects.

This is true. So many headphone fans in deeper use Receivers, Integrated, Amps and Pre-amps used for speakers, so I was thinking of that - sorry for not getting your point clearly.

The original question was about upgrading from $200 solid state amp to a $600 solid state amp, and based on my experience I would be leery about expecting that teh more expensive one to be noticeably better, even though every YouTube reviewer will say the more expensive one is better. Sometimes the more expensive one may be better, but not always in my experience (I mentioned my experience with the $600 Singxer SA-1 as an example).

Yes. That's why I often talk about used gear because you can get into the $1-1.5k new bracket, some of those are actually better. But I also agree that amps - except in unusual circumstances such as driving the 4 screw HE-6 which some have measured at 79.5 db.

Making comparisons even more complicated is that companies like Schiit probably have a price advantage compared to most other brands due to their direct sales to consumers, with no transportation costs from China, import/customs issues, US distributor costs, etc to worry about.

Yes, I took advantage of the Schiit offerings in early 2016 to form the backbone of my current system, and most of my stuff is used or modded, so all eyes and ears should focus on sound per dollar, not which equipment makes you feel better for just looking at it.

 

[chesebert]

This is true. So many headphone fans in deeper use Receivers, Integrated, Amps and Pre-amps used for speakers, so I was thinking of that - sorry for not getting your point clearly.

Yes. That's why I often talk about used gear because you can get into the $1-1.5k new bracket, some of those are actually better. But I also agree that amps - except in unusual circumstances such as driving the 4 screw HE-6 which some have measured at 79.5 db.

Yes, I took advantage of the Schiit offerings in early 2016 to form the backbone of my current system, and most of my stuff is used or modded, so all eyes and ears should focus on sound per dollar, not which equipment makes you feel better for just looking at it.

second buying used. You can pick up m3, Headamp gs-1 and possibility beta22 and dynahi for $1k or less. Headphone amp as a group has not really moved all that much in terms of sound fidelity for reasonably easy to drive cans.