[djork]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tfarney /img/forum/go_quote.gif I haven't heard the LD MKV either. I'm basing my comments on the design, which is discrete, true dual mono, and robust, and the comments on its rather long, dedicated thread. Based on design alone, it is several notches above amps like the Creek and Cute Beyond. I'd really like to hear the OP's comparisons to his amps. Not the Creek, so much, but if he thinks his Marantz holds its own against his 337...well, that's saying something. Tim

I'll sit down one of these days and give it a good listen.. never really did an A/B, just used the marantz for convenience when i need a quick listen. I paid about $316 in Singapore for it. At $200 less than what I paid for the darkvoice, i'd say it holds pretty well.

I'll do an A/B in a couple week's time and update this post.

 

[donunus]

My Audiolab 8000A sounds great with my hd600s

 

[tfarney]

I think it might be useful to summarize here what a few of us seem to have concluded from research, listening and the other two threads:

Most integrateds and receivers, vintage and modern, use nests of resistors to step down the signal from the main speaker amps. They rarely, as has been commonly stated on Head-fi, use separate op amp-based circuits (and when they do it's considered an upgrade and MORE design and effort is put into it!).

This means your integrated/receiver is as good a headphone amp as it is a speaker amp with one caveat -- this step-down method produces rather high output impedance which makes these amps a bad match to very low impedance phones (it will change their FR, but has little if any audible effect on high-impedance phones).

I don't think anyone is saying the headphone outs of all integrateds and receivers are as good as all dedicated headphone amps. Many dedicated headphone amps are very sophisticated high-end stuff, and that would be like saying any NAD/Marantz/Cambridge is as good as any Krell/Bel Canto/McIntosh.

But if you're using high-impedance phones, there's really no reason why a good integrated/reciever shouldn't be as good or better than many (most?) dedicated headphone amps. If there is, it will require explanation.

I think the thing that's a bit shocking here is that it is a complete contradiction of what has been our conventional wisdom -- that modern headphone jacks are underpowered by cheap op-amp based circuits and that low-impedance/high-efficiency phones would perform best with them, but phones like Senns and AKGs require the power of dedicated headphone amps.

The opposite appears to be the truth.

Tim

 

[pp312]

Well summarised, Tim, but I fear that when those who feel they have a position to defend on this forum get wind of your conclusions, it may be time to man the battlements. The 10c op amp theory has been dearly beloved here since the dawn of time.

Just as an aside, I've used integrated amps for many years, initially with a Senn 595 120 ohm then a 595 50 ohm. I can't say I ever noticed any difference out of any integrated I owned, and I used to buy and sell them regularly on Ebay so had a chance to try quite a few. I think even the "high output impedance can alter frequency response" theory, even if measurable, is not always subjectively detectable, perhaps in the same way as the gross frequency response dips and peaks in HPs aren't readily detectable.