[Sophonax]

Got a chance to try the HE-6 the other day from my newly-acquired Lyr.  Personally, I don't think the new generation orthos really come that close to the R10 (bass-light).  I even prefer the HD800 to both the LCD-2 and HE-6.
 
In addition to having many outstanding qualities (mids, treble, soundstage, imaging, comfort, etc.), I think one of the things that helps make the R10 great is that it really doesn't have any offensive or grating characteristics (at least to my ears, anyway).  In contrast, I think both the LCD-2 and HE-6 commit some sonic crimes.  The LCD-2 has a feeling of bloated (although tight) bass and recessed treble, in addition to a cramped soundstage that makes the whole listening experience feel claustrophobic.  I think the HE-6 has much better tonal balance, but it suffers from similar issues in spatial presentation.  Although I wouldn't go as far as saying the HE-6 sounds cramped or claustrophobic, I would say it gives a rather in-the-head-only listening experience, with mediocre imaging at best.
 
In the end, it seems to me that the orthodynamic drivers have trouble delivering a realistic and believable spatial presentation.  Personally, I'm sticking with dynamics for now.
 
All comments IMO, of course.

 

[warp08]

Quote:

Got a chance to try the HE-6 the other day from my newly-acquired Lyr.  Personally, I don't think the new generation orthos really come that close to the R10 (bass-light).  I even prefer the HD800 to both the LCD-2 and HE-6.
 
In addition to having many outstanding qualities (mids, treble, soundstage, imaging, comfort, etc.), I think one of the things that helps make the R10 great is that it really doesn't have any offensive or grating characteristics (at least to my ears, anyway).  In contrast, I think both the LCD-2 and HE-6 commit some sonic crimes.  The LCD-2 has a feeling of bloated (although tight) bass and recessed treble, in addition to a cramped soundstage that makes the whole listening experience feel claustrophobic.  I think the HE-6 has much better tonal balance, but it suffers from similar issues in spatial presentation.  Although I wouldn't go as far as saying the HE-6 sounds cramped or claustrophobic, I would say it gives a rather in-the-head-only listening experience, with mediocre imaging at best.
 
In the end, it seems to me that the orthodynamic drivers have trouble delivering a realistic and believable spatial presentation.  Personally, I'm sticking with dynamics for now.
 
All comments IMO, of course.

 
Let me preface my comments that I haven't auditioned the Lyr.  Seems like a nice amp, well designed and constructed.  I also don't doubt that the R10s especially, and even the other cans you describe sound better in some aspects than the HE6.
 
However, I do not think--based on specs only and not by personal experience as I have not heard the amp--that the power output is sufficient enough to drive the HE6 to project the full head- and soundstage it is capable of.  This has been a recurring tune throughout the thread.  The HE6 pretty much needs a quality integrated or speaker amp for best performance, at least in the area of spatial presentation.
 
Dynamics are a lot easier to drive, I second that.
 
 

 

[Sophonax]

 
Quote:

However, I do not think--based on specs only and not by personal experience as I have not heard the amp--that the power output is sufficient enough to drive the HE6 to project the full head- and soundstage it is capable of.  This has been a recurring tune throughout the thread.  The HE6 pretty much needs a quality integrated or speaker amp for best performance, at least in the area of spatial presentation.

 
This may indeed be the case -- I didn't try the HE-6 from a speaker amp.  At some point, though, I personally have to question the ridiculousness of pulling 100 W + from my wall to power a pair of headphones.  I think in future, my headphone purchasing decisions will have to be based partially on power requirements -- if something like the Lyr can't power them "adequately", then I'm not interested.
 
It's hard to describe the difference in spatial presentation I'm hearing between orthos and dynamics.  I think the best way to describe it is that with good dynamic headphones, sounds seem like they're coming from a definitive location in space.  With the orthos, it's almost like the sound is just there -- like there's something between you and the source of the sound that makes it difficult to figure out where it's coming from.  There were comments about the LCD-2 to this effect, especially regarding live music -- someone had stated that listening to a large-venue concert recording on the LCD-2 was like listening from behind a concrete wall outside the venue.  Some may appreciate the spatial presentation of orthos, but to me the dynamic headphones seem to provide a much more true-to-life experience.

 

[perrew]

Got a chance to try the HE-6 the other day from my newly-acquired Lyr.  Personally, I don't think the new generation orthos really come that close to the R10 (bass-light).  I even prefer the HD800 to both the LCD-2 and HE-6.
 
In addition to having many outstanding qualities (mids, treble, soundstage, imaging, comfort, etc.), I think one of the things that helps make the R10 great is that it really doesn't have any offensive or grating characteristics (at least to my ears, anyway).  In contrast, I think both the LCD-2 and HE-6 commit some sonic crimes.  The LCD-2 has a feeling of bloated (although tight) bass and recessed treble, in addition to a cramped soundstage that makes the whole listening experience feel claustrophobic.  I think the HE-6 has much better tonal balance, but it suffers from similar issues in spatial presentation.  Although I wouldn't go as far as saying the HE-6 sounds cramped or claustrophobic, I would say it gives a rather in-the-head-only listening experience, with mediocre imaging at best.
 
In the end, it seems to me that the orthodynamic drivers have trouble delivering a realistic and believable spatial presentation.  Personally, I'm sticking with dynamics for now.
 
All comments IMO, of course.

Tks for your impression, I havent heard the Lyr so this was nice input.
However I dont find the LCD-2 to have bloated bass and recessed highs on the APL UA-S4 amp I use, and consider them more neutral than the HD800.

 

[Sophonax]

 
Quote:

 

Tks for your impression, I havent heard the Lyr so this was nice input.
However I dont find the LCD-2 to have bloated bass and recessed highs on the APL UA-S4 amp I use, and consider them more neutral than the HD800.

The perception of neutrality seems to vary considerably among individuals -- I would definitely say the HD800 is more neutral than the LCD-2 (then again, I'm the kind of person who doesn't find the bass on the bass-light R10, the HD800, or the K701 to be lacking, whereas many people do).  I don't think anyone's view of neutrality is incorrect, which makes it kind of hard to compare headphones with the word "neutrality."
 
I just wanted to give my impressions, for what they are worth.  I didn't intend to demean either the LCD-2 or the HE-6 with my comments -- they're both very good headphones that many people enjoy, and I would definitely put them in the same tier along with the HD800 and T1.  There were parts of the sonic character of each of the orthos that I was very impressed with, but overall they just weren't for me.
 
 

 

[Sophonax]

In retrospect, maybe I shouldn't use the word "bloated" to describe the bass of the LCD-2.  "Bloated" usually implies poor quality, which the LCD-2's bass certainly isn't.  I think it's better to say that I find their bass presentation to be emphasized compared to the other frequencies in the spectrum.
 
I think with the LCD-2, it's been a case of either you get it, or you don't.  Some people describe their bass to be outstandingly natural, whereas to my ears it was quite unnatural.  In the end it's just more evidence that you really need to try before buying -- reading other people's impressions can only give you a partial idea of what a headphone's really about, like seeing something through a pane of smoked glass.

 

[perrew]

 

The perception of neutrality seems to vary considerably among individuals -- I would definitely say the HD800 is more neutral than the LCD-2 (then again, I'm the kind of person who doesn't find the bass on the bass-light R10, the HD800, or the K701 to be lacking, whereas many people do).  I don't think anyone's view of neutrality is incorrect, which makes it kind of hard to compare headphones with the word "neutrality."
 
I just wanted to give my impressions, for what they are worth.  I didn't intend to demean either the LCD-2 or the HE-6 with my comments -- they're both very good headphones that many people enjoy, and I would definitely put them in the same tier along with the HD800 and T1.  There were parts of the sonic character of each of the orthos that I was very impressed with, but overall they just weren't for me.
 
 

To me the LCD-2s sound quite linear and the HD800 tipped up in the treble and not as liquid as the LCD-2. The T1 is not in the same league for me. I havent heard the hE-6 though so they might be nice. As to the R10 I feel they are to expensive at 7k or what they are now. At that prive you can buy a nice pair of speakers, unless youre room constrained Id choose the speakers. None of the phones Ive heard can approach my speaker setup, but theres a lot of enjoyment from a nice pair of cans theres no doubt about that.

 

[warp08]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophonax /img/forum/go_quote.gif

This may indeed be the case -- I didn't try the HE-6 from a speaker amp.  At some point, though, I personally have to question the ridiculousness of pulling 100 W + from my wall to power a pair of headphones.  I think in future, my headphone purchasing decisions will have to be based partially on power requirements -- if something like the Lyr can't power them "adequately", then I'm not interested.
 

Of course only you can determine how much are you willing to invest in the rest of your gear, in particularly, amplification.  But exemplary spatial imaging isn't limited to orthos or dynamics.  In fact, some of the best 'stats out there, such as the HE60s and especially the HE90s rely on high-end energizers to sound their best.  I'm pulling in the 'stats because Stax is included in the thread header.  One of the reasons why I'm not calling out the SR007 Omega--which is the only Stax I have at the moment--because it doesn't sufficient synergy with either one of my current electrostatic amps to compete not only with the HE6/Cary SLI80 Signature combo but the Senns either in spatial imaging.  Overall SQ, yes, but no credible projection of soundstage.  And it's not just the question of power, at a certain level you will encounter bottlenecks in your system as you upgrade, say, your headphones.  In your particular case, you have the options to either obtain a relatively cheap, vintage speaker amp that reportedly can make the HE6 shine, or keep using dynamics that are better matched with the Lyr's power output and have the proper synergy that yields the overall sound signature that you happen to prefer.

 

[curtain]

Quote:

It's hard to describe the difference in spatial presentation I'm hearing between orthos and dynamics.  I think the best way to describe it is that with good dynamic headphones, sounds seem like they're coming from a definitive location in space.  With the orthos, it's almost like the sound is just there -- like there's something between you and the source of the sound that makes it difficult to figure out where it's coming from.  There were comments about the LCD-2 to this effect, especially regarding live music -- someone had stated that listening to a large-venue concert recording on the LCD-2 was like listening from behind a concrete wall outside the venue.  Some may appreciate the spatial presentation of orthos, but to me the dynamic headphones seem to provide a much more true-to-life experience.

 
If anything the dynamics I've listened to have some smaller, fist-like and for lack of a better word, deformed space, performing in such as manner as to ask for your attention not unlike a jester.
 
The LCD2 sound is all about drawing you irresistibly into a place to experience beautiful music. I have real trouble trying to allocate time in finding fault with them let alone finding one, as the experience seduces you over and over. Perhaps the concrete wall analogy is some psycho acoustic suggestion planted in your head. The Pixies for example sound fantastic live and what a treat to be tricked into being there. My suggestion, break down the walls.
 

 

[Sophonax]

Quote:

 
If anything the dynamics I've listened to have some smaller, fist-like and for lack of a better word, deformed space, performing in such as manner as to ask for your attention not unlike a jester.
 
The LCD2 sound is all about drawing you irresistibly into a place to experience beautiful music. I have real trouble trying to allocate time in finding fault with them let alone finding one, as the experience seduces you over and over. Perhaps the concrete wall analogy is some psycho acoustic suggestion planted in your head. The Pixies for example sound fantastic live and what a treat to be tricked into being there. My suggestion, break down the walls.
 

Another example of how people's hearing differs dramatically.
 
To my ears, the LCD-2 had both a very small soundstage and a recessed treble.  The combination of the two made the LCD-2 sound cramped and claustrophobic to me.  I listened exclusively to the LCD-2 for a week to see if I would adjust to the sound -- I never did.  It just never struck me as natural and didn't resemble what I'd hear in the real world at all.  When you said:
 
"The LCD2 sound is all about drawing you irresistibly into a place to experience beautiful music."
 
For me, that place was about the size of a broom cupboard.
 
After listening to the LCD-2, putting on a pair of headphones like the R10 or the HD800 was like a breath of fresh air.  There was treble.  There was balanced bass.  And most of all, there was a spacious soundstage and precision imaging to match.
 
For me, all of my dynamic headphones, with the possible exception of the SR60i, have a better spatial presentation than the LCD-2.  That's just the way I hear it.
 
 

 

[AudioCats]

Quote:

LCD2 is very good but not quite as good as the best stuff.  The lack of air makes listening to live albums very strange, for instance. ......

....

 
 Agree.
 
Listening to concert recording using the LCD-2 gives no "there" feel.
 
HE-6 doesn't seem to have this problem.
 

 

[jamato8]

I wonder what the difference is? I listen mostly balanced but also SE with the very maxxed fi.Q, and using the Twag V2, I do get a sense of air and clarity to live music. I do not, and can not stand a head phone or speakers that do not present this on recorded music that has this quality, the sense of being there. Some of my phones I do not listen to very much for this reason but they are there as a reference. The HE-6 and the LCD-2 both, for me, have the ability to cut through any haze, or wall between me and what sounds like a direct attachment to the event. 

 

[Blackmore]

Not sure which amp LCD-2 needs, think of ZD, maybe BA, but last I never tried, however even then the question is, would they shine like their price tag. So far, tried them with stock cable through Cary CAD 300sei and with after market&fully balanced through custom made Tektron, but to me, they sounded the same on both ocasions. I cant stend their pretty dull signature and they arent that comfy, nothing natural either. Maybe one day I can try them through speaker outputs, but so far, no good, to much of very strange cream for my taste.

 

[tvrboy]

I agree that both orthos have problems with spatial presentaion. The he-6 puts you right in the middle of the music , instead of the normal concert- hall presentation of the 800. The center image is choppy and disjointed. Despite this , I still prefer the he-6 to the 800. The senn sounds brittle and unforgiving with most rock recordings. I fel the treble really does have a peak, because of the harsh and grating treble reproduction with any electronic instument. Even 800 fans like uncle Erik say it's much better on a tube Amp. Wth acoustic music the 800 is perfect though. But the he-6 has it beat in every area except soundstaging. Plus, I can play rock and pop with it.

 

[Sophonax]

Quote:

I agree that both orthos have problems with spatial presentaion. The he-6 puts you right in the middle of the music , instead of the normal concert- hall presentation of the 800. The center image is choppy and disjointed. Despite this , I still prefer the he-6 to the 800. The senn sounds brittle and unforgiving with most rock recordings. I fel the treble really does have a peak, because of the harsh and grating treble reproduction with any electronic instument. Even 800 fans like uncle Erik say it's much better on a tube Amp. Wth acoustic music the 800 is perfect though. But the he-6 has it beat in every area except soundstaging. Plus, I can play rock and pop with it.

Good post -- I'd agree with that.  I liked the HD800 better than the T1, HE-6, and LCD-2, but I will admit that its treble isn't exactly neutral, and that the HE-6 is better in that respect (though still not as good as the R10 -- the R10's treble is borderline perfection IMO).  The extra bass weight of the HE-6 also helps with rock and pop music, and it also makes the dynamics in some film soundtracks more exciting.
 
You can get the HD800 to sound pretty decent with rock and pop too, but it takes some experimenting.  Lately I've been pretty impressed with my Oppo BDP-95 / Schiit Lyr combo for the HD800.  The Oppo seems to be more bass and mids oriented than my Bel Canto DAC3, taming some of the HD800's treble, and the Lyr helps give an extra boost in dynamics.  In this system, I find the HD800 to sound good with rock music -- certainly not world-class, but definitely enjoyable.
 
But at the end of the day, like you said, the HD800 really is most at home with acoustic music.  With that concert hall soundstage, it really excels with live music too, which is where I feel the orthos fall short.  It would probably make sense to own one of the current top-tier dynamics (HD800 or T1) and one of the current top-tier orthos (HE-6 or LCD-2) for that reason...if one's wallet can take that kind of a hit