[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gradofan2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Exactly right... I've looked hard to find a way to make the HD650's sound as fast, clear, detailed and bright as the HD600's, or even the RS-1's or AD2000's... and, found that it is difficult to find. There are several other threads / posts, which describe how to make the HD650's sound better - less "veiled" (muddy or foggy - like a blanket over them) - and it pretty much gets down to: the right amp, source, cable, and removing the foam liners. And... I've found using the Aphex 204 sound processor helps greatly - perhaps the fastest and most practical way to get there. I'm sure some of the expensive sources, and SP amps help a great deal - but, why invest in all of that, if you can get there with the HD600's, RS-1's, SR-225's, AD2000's, or perhaps others for far less money, time and frustration.

Well I can say that the HD650 on a proper amp and source can beat the HD600 or SR225 with speed and detail. All this while it preserves soundstage and bass. It's more when you get into expensive gear that the 225 and 600 show some limitations. I've got the brighter cousin to the 225, the 325.....and right now, it just seems a pale comparison to the 650. In every regard

I'm not making any pretensions that it does take source and amp to get the 650s to sound phenominal.

On the note of defoaming a Senn......I've tried with the HD580, and I couldn't hear much of a difference. I tried it on the 650, and it totally killed it IMO! Doesn't bring out more detail, but instead got rid of some of the bass. All and all, defoaming or recabling is way less effective then evaluating your source.

I also recomend the HD595 for those who don't want to get into expensive stuff. It's something else to consider over the 580/600.....it shares a similar frequency response but seems more detailed because of the driver being angled. So it's better for rock and symphonies coming out of a soundcard. Though if you're not liking the 600 for lack of bass, then you're not going to get that with the 595 (which has the same amount of bass). The 650 is the only Senn with more bass.

 

[apostate]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif I also recomend the HD595 for those who don't want to get into expensive stuff. It's something else to consider over the 580/600.....it shares a similar frequency response but seems more detailed because of the driver being angled. So it's better for rock and symphonies coming out of a soundcard. Though if you're not liking the 600 for lack of bass, then you're not going to get that with the 595 (which has the same amount of bass). The 650 is the only Senn with more bass.

The 120 Ohm version of the 595 I had definitely has less bass than the 600 which has less bass than the 650. IMO the 600 is a little bassier than neutral and the 595 a little lean. The 650 is over the top to my ears, though I haven't heard it with a complete system tailored for it or any very expensive amps.

IMO The 600 is definitely more detailed than the 595 and the 650 even better yet. While the fact the 595 is a little brighter, and may present certain details a little more clearly, the 600 has more.

Though their frequency response may be fairly similar the 595 and 600 sound pretty different as well(though not Grado/Senn different).

Ant

 

[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaZa /img/forum/go_quote.gif A noticeable dip in uppermids/lower highs, and its even visible in frequency graph. And its really bothering me for example. *THEORY* And average human hearing has a small dip close to that dip, around 7-12khz (where some headphones tend to put a spike). Senns play that flatly. But because of human hearing, it only makes that earlier veil/dip "stretch" to even larger area. I guess its this that gives Senns its laidback sound? *THEORY ENDS. TOO MUCH FREE TIME...*

Human hearing is different among individuals....so I don't know how many people have this dip in hearing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearing...ness_and_pitch

"Veil" is something I struggle with, since being a Senn person, I've never encountered it. I also think it's bullocks that it means I have sensitivities to brightness, as I can handle the 325i just fine. IMO, veil just might be the overall softness in treble that Senns have. If you look at the FRGs of Senns, Beyers, and AKGs, the Senns have less dramatic dips in the high frequencies.

While the Senns have a lower db in the 10khz range, they also have less of a dip after that. The AKGs have the greatest....yet they're considered the most detailed

Beyers get tagged as the brightest since they uniformly have a higher db along this area. So you might have something with your theory about the 10khz range, Maza. If after it really dips, you don't get as much extension.....so all you hear is "detail" (the 10khz range might be the average range where most intruments are). If it continues to be spikey, then perhaps we see it as bright.

Or, I could be full of it.....alright, enough sound theory....back to work for me!

 

[Ruppin]

Just wanted to add a few personal observations. I don't claim to be an expert.

1)There is heavier, more noticeable bass on the 650 than on the 600.

2)The 600 tends to sound cleaner on most amps.

3)Amps make a huge difference with sennheisers. I find that the 650 was better on an analytical Benchmark DAC1. I like the 600 better on the Raptor. On a maxxed out headroom home balanced, they both sound good.

4) Cables can make a difference. The equinox clears the 650 up, at least for me.

At times I also listen to GS-1000s, 701s and my new favorites are STAX O2s. I think I'm developing a taste for clarity (I listen to a lot of classical). Just letting you know in case this explains my preference for 600 over 650. (I have 3 pairs of 650s, so it isn't as if I hate 'em).

Overall, IMHO, amping makes the biggest difference.

 

[robm321]

600 = accurate bass / better balance, 650 too much bass (on balanced recabled set up, doesn't matter)

650 = more refinement

I prefer the 600/Cardas to any 650 setup. But that's my preference - you may be a

Beware of the 600 or 650 can do no wrong fan boys

(fan boy = everything good about one of them and everything wrong about the other)

They both do good and bad things like everything else.
- Neither is perfect

 

[apostate]

Quote:

Originally Posted by robm321 /img/forum/go_quote.gif 600 = accurate bass / better balance, 650 too much bass (on balanced recabled set up, doesn't matter) 650 = more refinement I prefer the 600/Cardas to any 650 setup. But that's my preference - you may be a Beware of the 600 or 650 can do no wrong fan boys (fan boy = everything good about one of them and everything wrong about the other) They both do good and bad things like everything else. - Neither is perfect

Well said.... the 650 definitely has a more refined/liquid/smooth sound. Really comes down to personal preference.

Ant

 

[NelsonVandal]

There's a heavy coloration in the mids in both of them. None of them are neutral. I think it's the dip in the 5 kHz region people describe as the "veil". There's a peak about 3 kHz that has a kind of horn speaker sound in the 650's.

I really like my HD650's. They're very musical and nonfatiguing, an overall soundsignature you can live with, without thinking of buying a new can all the time. I found the 600's a bit more dry and analytic, but I found the treble to be more detailed in the 650's. I love the bass in the 650's.

 

[J-Pak]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solude /img/forum/go_quote.gif To me the Senn 650 improved on the clarity and resolution of the Senn 600. Voices in particular are more forward on the Senn 650. The cost is fatter bass which is where the right amp comes in. Right doesn't mean pricy though, the HeadAmp Lite is a great partner for the Senn 650.

My thoughts as well. At least in the higher frequencies I find the HD650 to be resolving (to a certain extent, I still find them rolled off when directly compared to the K1000) than the HD600. With a transparent source the HD600 exhibits some graininess thats very annoying.

 

[DevilDog]

Okay, to the OP, if you like the 600s and just want more bass, the 650s are the way to go. They are the closest to the 600s in every way, they just have more bass. I think it's the way for you to go.
Now, after reading these posts I'd think the 650s are awful. They are, after all, a world class headphone. Some other cans may have tighter bass, but the 650s bass is not that bad. Let's get real. Robm321 nailed it, no headphone is perfect, it always comes down to what you prefer. The HD-580/600/650s all share the same signature. It's mostly the bass that changes, mostly.
I admit, in a lot of situations I might prefer the 600s over the 650s, but if you're looking for more bass then just go with the 650s.

 

[purk]

I will take the HD-650 over the HD-600 if you own a good source, and good amp. The HD-650 will appear as slow and muddy in the bass region if you don't have a good system for them. But once your system is there...the HD-650 with the upgrade cable can go head to head with most cans. I recently listened to my R10s and HD-650 side by side via my upgraded SDS and still couldn't believe how far the HD-650 has came and how great they can be. Cable upgrade is a must for every Senn HD-650 owners. One area that I prefer the HD-650 over the HD-600 is the midrange quality and another is the depth of the soundstage. I also agree with Skyline888 that the Jubilee is a better headphones than the HD-600 and HD-580.

 

[jjhatfield]

I don't own the 600, but I do own the 580 (waiting on my grills from Senn to make them 600's), and I own the 650's as well. For me, I gotta own both.

All IMO of course: the HD650s have noticeably more bass then the 580s, and on the whole sound warmer, lusher, and more distant then the 580s. By comparison the 580s still are more distant then say, Grados or Beyers, but the sound is not as far away as on the HD650s. The sound on the 580s is drier and maybe, maybe just the tad bit less detailed then the HD650s.

Bottom line is I love Sennheisers. I go through spells when its all about the 580s, and times when nothing will do but the 650s.

So I gotta own both.

EDIT: Also, I am looking forward to picking up a pair of 595's for my next can purchase.

 

[MaZa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif Human hearing is different among individuals....so I don't know how many people have this dip in hearing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearing...ness_and_pitch "Veil" is something I struggle with, since being a Senn person, I've never encountered it. I also think it's bullocks that it means I have sensitivities to brightness, as I can handle the 325i just fine. IMO, veil just might be the overall softness in treble that Senns have. If you look at the FRGs of Senns, Beyers, and AKGs, the Senns have less dramatic dips in the high frequencies. While the Senns have a lower db in the 10khz range, they also have less of a dip after that. The AKGs have the greatest....yet they're considered the most detailed Beyers get tagged as the brightest since they uniformly have a higher db along this area. So you might have something with your theory about the 10khz range, Maza. If after it really dips, you don't get as much extension.....so all you hear is "detail" (the 10khz range might be the average range where most intruments are). If it continues to be spikey, then perhaps we see it as bright. Or, I could be full of it.....alright, enough sound theory....back to work for me!

Not after the 10khz, BEFORE 10 Khz, in 5khz or so. Eqing that dip up removes some of the veil i noticed with HD595. Now, this dip combined with humans natural dip in 10khz (just before hearing sensitivity rapidly decreases in around 12KHz). Of course, not everyones hearing is same, thats why some people find that 10khz spike very sharp. But average hearing does have it AFAIK. I need to check that before thinking any further.

*edit* Yup, it has a small dip, but also found out that human hearing is also very sensitive in around 5khz, so i dont know how much that Sennheiser dip matters. But most likely that is still the source of that veil which some people find disturbing. Atleast it was lifted with slight EQing in that area. Side note, instead of dip, Grados have a hill in that area.

 

[milkpowder]

From personal experience, the HD650 do have more bass than the HD600. I definitely wouldn't call the HD650 muddy, but they certainly have something "dark" about them. Having spent a lot of time with them during the Christmas break, I have grown accustomed to the HD650's darker sound and actually find it very pleasing. The highs are still very clear and if anything, the lower mids sound slightly thick. The HD650 do sound slightly more refined though. It's something I can't quite pinpoint or put into words, but the HD650 sounds nicer than the HD600. I listened using a Hornet M as an amp, so it's entry-level amping at best. Those of you with better amps will obviously fair better.

Some of us mentioned an aftermarket cable for the HD650. I've personally tried adding a Zu Mobius to the mix and it really does brighten up the sound while keeping the mids nice and rich. I can't quite remember how the bass sounded with the Zu Mobius because it was a few months back. Anyhow, the Zu takes the HD650 to a sort of K701-like sound signature while still retaining the Senn 'house-sound'.

 

[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaZa /img/forum/go_quote.gif Not after the 10khz, BEFORE 10 Khz, in 5khz or so. Eqing that dip up removes some of the veil i noticed with HD595. Now, this dip combined with humans natural dip in 10khz (just before hearing sensitivity rapidly decreases in around 12KHz). Of course, not everyones hearing is same, thats why some people find that 10khz spike very sharp. But average hearing does have it AFAIK. I need to check that before thinking any further.

I simply was saying that maybe it's broader then a small dip

So much of it is our perception. I mean really, after the 10khz range lots of heaphones have HUGE dips

Now I will respect some people's opinions that the HD650 is too bass heavy on their systems. But they should respect my opinion that the bass on the 650 can be very natural

I am not a bass head, but I like my headphones to have enough realism as a regular auditorium (which caries bass). No one is arguing that it has more bass then the 600....and maybe on certain systems it can sound flabby. But my opinion is that it doesn't have too much bass on a fast system. On a warm system, sure there can be nothing but bass.

 

[MaZa]

Quote:

I simply was saying that maybe it's broader then a small dip So much of it is our perception. I mean really, after the 10khz range lots of heaphones have HUGE dips

Oh, now i got it! This 5khz dip + human ear dip 10khz + a huuuge dip drop after it... A dip sauce?