[elecsheep9]

You said that, before you had listened to the likes of the T1 and other $1,000+ cans mentioned, that you did not realized the flaws in the HD650 sound.  Thus, the 650s on their own, do not seem to exhibit the flaws you mentioned, but rather they are only noticed on comparison to the more expensive (and hopefully better cans).  This is not a helpful or meaningful comparison.
 
There are clear sound quality issues that can be detected on their own.  A booming, muddy bass that drowns out other frequencies; a tinny, shrill treble that causes fatigue after a few minutes; a lacking mid-range that leaves one asking where the guitars and vocals are; a cavernous or tin-can sound.  These are all things that one can notice as being a clear flaw of a set of cans without having to resort to comparing to much better cans. 
 
But if you only notice problems with a set of headphones after seeing the light of much more expensive gear, well then that is not so much a flaw as it is, perhaps, a limitation on technology. 
 
In a world where money is not a concern, then we can all strive to get the absolute best gear available.  But where people very often have such mundane concerns as needing money for shelter and food, then the more important issue for most people is price/performance ratio -- given the price paid, are the limitations of the gear reasonable.  That is not something that can be measured by comparing a $500 set of cans to $1000+ ones.
 
Before choosing the 650s, I listened to a number of popular cans in the price range.  They each had their pros and they each had their cons.  But, in the end, I found that the smooth sound signature of the 650s was the most pleasing to my ear and what I was looking for.  I knew that I was getting a less than neutral can -- in fact, I rejected the 702s for being too neutral for my taste.  And I know that the treble is not as "sparkly" or aggressive as my grados.  But, in the end, I felt that the 650s were just unbelievably listenable.  I just never want to take them off.  And I do not feel that I am missing any of the music.  Rather, despite it not being as up-front as other cans I have heard or owned, I feel that I am more enveloped by the music.
 
Might I feel even more so by cans double or close to triple the price -- I should hope so.  And I have no doubt that they should be even more revealing. 
 
But when one buys a mid-range BMW, one does not complain that it does not have all of the features of a Rolls-Royce.  And certainly one does not tell others, I thought my BMW was great until I learned the true luxury of the Rolls-Royce.  To do so is not only unhelpful and meaningless, but unbelievably elitist. 
 
 

 
 

 

[nigeljames]

Quote:

You said that, before you had listened to the likes of the T1 and other $1,000+ cans mentioned, that you did not realized the flaws in the HD650 sound.  Thus, the 650s on their own, do not seem to exhibit the flaws you mentioned, but rather they are only noticed on comparison to the more expensive (and hopefully better cans).  This is not a helpful or meaningful comparison.
 
There are clear sound quality issues that can be detected on their own.  A booming, muddy bass that drowns out other frequencies; a tinny, shrill treble that causes fatigue after a few minutes; a lacking mid-range that leaves one asking where the guitars and vocals are; a cavernous or tin-can sound.  These are all things that one can notice as being a clear flaw of a set of cans without having to resort to comparing to much better cans. 
 
But if you only notice problems with a set of headphones after seeing the light of much more expensive gear, well then that is not so much a flaw as it is, perhaps, a limitation on technology. 
 
In a world where money is not a concern, then we can all strive to get the absolute best gear available.  But where people very often have such mundane concerns as needing money for shelter and food, then the more important issue for most people is price/performance ratio -- given the price paid, are the limitations of the gear reasonable.  That is not something that can be measured by comparing a $500 set of cans to $1000+ ones.
 
Before choosing the 650s, I listened to a number of popular cans in the price range.  They each had their pros and they each had their cons.  But, in the end, I found that the smooth sound signature of the 650s was the most pleasing to my ear and what I was looking for.  I knew that I was getting a less than neutral can -- in fact, I rejected the 702s for being too neutral for my taste.  And I know that the treble is not as "sparkly" or aggressive as my grados.  But, in the end, I felt that the 650s were just unbelievably listenable.  I just never want to take them off.  And I do not feel that I am missing any of the music.  Rather, despite it not being as up-front as other cans I have heard or owned, I feel that I am more enveloped by the music.
 
Might I feel even more so by cans double or close to triple the price -- I should hope so.  And I have no doubt that they should be even more revealing. 
 
But when one buys a mid-range BMW, one does not complain that it does not have all of the features of a Rolls-Royce.  And certainly one does not tell others, I thought my BMW was great until I learned the true luxury of the Rolls-Royce.  To do so is not only unhelpful and meaningless, but unbelievably elitist. 
 
 

 
 

I don't recall saying that I only noticed the flaws of the HD650's when I listened to $1000+ doller cans. I noticed 'flaws' straight away but based on my previous listening experiences I still liked a lot of what they did. Instead of selling them I tried to improve then by buying better cables but the improvements were not significant enough.
It was only when I purchased a pair of AKG K701's that the flaws of the HD650's became crystal clear.
Yes the K701's exibited different flaws but I never expected that the K701 or the HD650's were going to be flawless expecially given their price. I do find the K701's better from a technical point of view but whether they are more enjoyable is up to the listener to decide.
 
Its when I get people who consider the HD650's as headphones that can even begin to compete with most headphones in the $1000+ range, a opinion that seems to be shared with a number of posters in this thread, that I feel I should say what I think. Most people who have the HD650's as their 'go to' phone have probably never heard one of the 'top' phones or if they have it was in a system that does not allow these phones to excel.
The fact that quite a few people seem to be using EQing to get the sound they want from the HD650's also says a lot.
 

 

[gokica]

Do you think that your +1000 dollars cans are flawless? If you think so than your ears are "shaped" as such so that they can not hear these flaws. This is where it all begins and ends. It is called personal preferences. Although I agree that not everything is that subjective but than again we will come to the price differences.
 
I stopped using EQ some time ago as well but I just do not see it as a sin if used since sometimes people want something different from the "reference" sound of a phone.
 
There is a big difference between EQing HD 650 and other cans. HD 650 are like a chameleon with different sources and EQ settings as well. My collection of HPs is far from vast or luxurious but enough to realize that HD 650 scales best with EQ.
 
When bass is added there is no loss in texture unlike some other HPs. They can easily reach the WOW factor as well. Also one can add highs upon preference for emphasizing or just for balance with the bass and it is very enjoyable experience without high pitched sounds especially with some recordings.
 
And yet if you do not EQ HD 650 the sound is most pleasing especially with classical music. So basically HD 650 do have the capability of being EQed and at the same time they offer excellent performance if not controlled by EQ.
 
My point is. HD 650s offer more choices to their owners. Different genres can be had with different settings and preferences. Not many phones out there can do this quite right like this set of cans. And we should not forget their price tag.
 
We also need to take in consideration the open airy sound feeling that they provide which is one major factor why people prefer them over closed headphones even if these people are looking for a sound which is not that close to the HD 650 default sound i.e. their own reference.
 
At the end I believe that what counts is the number of opinions on each front. One (or few) versus many says a lot about the common preference and why people like HD 650 and why they do not experience HD 650 as veiled. I am including people with experience and not only "the ones that you think have not seen or had as much as you have in your life".
 
Quote:

I don't recall saying that I only noticed the flaws of the HD650's when I listened to $1000+ doller cans. I noticed 'flaws' straight away but based on my previous listening experiences I still liked a lot of what they did. Instead of selling them I tried to improve then by buying better cables but the improvements were not significant enough.
It was only when I purchased a pair of AKG K701's that the flaws of the HD650's became crystal clear.
Yes the K701's exibited different flaws but I never expected that the K701 or the HD650's were going to be flawless expecially given their price. I do find the K701's better from a technical point of view but whether they are more enjoyable is up to the listener to decide.
 
Its when I get people who consider the HD650's as headphones that can even begin to compete with most headphones in the $1000+ range, a opinion that seems to be shared with a number of posters in this thread, that I feel I should say what I think. Most people who have the HD650's as their 'go to' phone have probably never heard one of the 'top' phones or if they have it was in a system that does not allow these phones to excel.
The fact that quite a few people seem to be using EQing to get the sound they want from the HD650's also says a lot.
 

 

 

[elecsheep9]

What was it you said earlier?  "Please read more carefully in the future"?  Looks like we are all guilty of that.
 
Quote:

I had 2 HD650's (first got stolen) and I did not realise its faults until I heard better, then it all became crystal clear. I have heard HD650's on a number of good quality amps playing music I know well and the lack of detail and definition, which I believe leads to the veiled effect, was always plainly obvious.  The only thing I have never done is hear a balanced pair.
 
When you hear better you will know why the HD650's are called veiled

 
 

 
So where is the part about you not noticing the 650s flaws without having heard other cans?
 
Lawyered.
 

 

[Zombie_X]

I have never heard the mystical veil of the HD650. They just don't have that treble sparkle and can sound slow or muffled. They do sound slow, but they are not slow at all. They have aluminum voice coils and can be very dynamic. They are so rolled off and smooth that it gives you the impression that they are slow.
 
Also a powerful amp can not remedy this at all, but a brighter one could though. On all my amps the HD600 sounds somewhat bright. Take that as you may, but they do not sound subdued or muffled to my ears at all. They are more treble oriented than my old PRODJ100 and more so than the RP-HTF600. The HD600 IS NOT SLOW.
 
 

 

[tdockweiler]

I had the HD-600 a couple of years ago with my Asgard. Had the veil for sure, but I never had a very good computer based DAC. Most of my listening was done with a really good CD player at the time. 10% of the time I used a docked (LOD) Ipod (Wolfson) with WAV/ALAC.
I got another HD-600 recently and have not heard this veil much at all. This time I have a HRT MSII DAC. Maybe this pair has thousands of hours of use. Who knows. I did buy it used and replaced it's pads.
 
I actually think every stock Sennheiser cable comes with a veil pre-installed inside each cable. Don't shoot me! If you remove the plastic covering, it's there. I'll send you photos upon request. Quite an ugly thing. Looks like an evil version of lowly the worm.
 
If you attached a Veil free™ cable you'll be surprised at the difference. Belden or any low capacitance wire will do the trick. It's expensive at around 50 cents per foot.
 
 
 
 

 

[Bonobo Loco]

HD650 owners... are you satisfied with the build quality? I've been seeing complaints here and there. Just curious what you guys think. Thanks.

 

[Rawrbington]

the build quality is acceptable.
but because they are so rediculously light weight it makes them feel kinda fragile and cheap.
 
no veil though, just laid back, very very smooth open cans.
 

 

[mac336]

Personally, I like the build quality because of its light, plasticy feel.  I find the velour pads very comfortable and the light weight is awesome.  Mine have been thrown around alot and are kind of beat up, but I havent had any problems--they are very durable and sturdy.  If I were to drop them on the floor I would just shrug because I know they aren't going to break or get damaged from that (besides a nick or a scratch of the paint). 
Quote:

HD650 owners... are you satisfied with the build quality? I've been seeing complaints here and there. Just curious what you guys think. Thanks.

 

 

[Rawrbington]

yeah, the comfort is great.  love the pads.
 
aside from the paint thats starting to crack or peel on the underside of the headband they have been pretty durable.
they just feel fragile, but its misleading i think.
 
they are my favorite sub 300$ headphone.  granted that price was a used like new pair

 

[nigeljames]

Quote:

Do you think that your +1000 dollars cans are flawless? If you think so than your ears are "shaped" as such so that they can not hear these flaws. This is where it all begins and ends. It is called personal preferences. Although I agree that not everything is that subjective but than again we will come to the price differences.
 
 
 
At the end I believe that what counts is the number of opinions on each front. One (or few) versus many says a lot about the common preference and why people like HD 650 and why they do not experience HD 650 as veiled. I am including people with experience and not only "the ones that you think have not seen or had as much as you have in your life".


 

No headphone is perfect and I never said my cans were. However they are of a standard that even their weaknesses are only in comparison to their strengths and not flawed like the HD650's were to me.
 
This is the HD650 appreciation thread so it is pretty obvious that the majority of people on this thread would be fans. Common sense really.
I only started to contribute to this thread in response to the stupid statement, which may have been a joke anyway, that the HD650's were better than the flagship phones. As someone who has had the HD650's and similar priced cans and now fortunately some flagship cans I feel I am in a position to contribute and add some common sense in response to that 'statement'
 
Quote:

What was it you said earlier?  "Please read more carefully in the future"?  Looks like we are all guilty of that.
 
So where is the part about you not noticing the 650s flaws without having heard other cans?
 
Lawyered.
 

 
At the time I bought the HD650's they were the best headphone I had heard so I had no reference point to decide that they were flawed. My system was also new at that time and I had always had speaker based systems before that. I realised that the HD650's had certain aspects of its sound that I did not like but at the time it seemed that the only 2 cans in its price range that was all the rage to buy were the Senns or the K701's. The Senns were generally considered the better option for rock so I went for them. Eventually I did buy a pair of K701's and it was then that I realised the flaws in the presentation of the HD650's. These opinions have not changed after listening to many more cans since.
 
I think that now I have been active on the thread long enough and won't be posting again.
To all those people who really like the HD650's (and I have stated earlier thet with the right musical tastes the HD650's could be ideal)  I am pleased for you and hope you have many happy hours listening to them.
To those who think they are also amongst the best you can get ( taking into account the proviso in the line above) don't be fooled.

 
Bye Bye and happy listening.
 
 

 

[nicholars]

I agree... But then you are comparing £280 headphones to headphones costing 3-5 times the price.

 

[DWbirdseye]

You're on the wrong thread. This is the "veil" thread. Bye, bye and happy listening to you too.

 
Quote:

 
 
This is the HD650 appreciation thread so it is pretty obvious that the majority of people on this thread would be fans.
 
Bye Bye and happy listening.
 
 

 

 

[maarek99]

Quote:

You said that, before you had listened to the likes of the T1 and other $1,000+ cans mentioned, that you did not realized the flaws in the HD650 sound.  Thus, the 650s on their own, do not seem to exhibit the flaws you mentioned, but rather they are only noticed on comparison to the more expensive (and hopefully better cans).  This is not a helpful or meaningful comparison.

 

I had the T1's and sold them because my HD650 sounded better to my ears. The T1 was too thin, bright and lacked low-end. It had more dynamic swing though. Is this a more meaningful comparison?

 

[Audiowood]

 
I just got the headroom ultra desktop and its one of the amp I bought specifically for HD650 as its has a brightness switch. THe HD650 sounded super amazing with filter switch to 1 (there are 2) and everything becomes crystal clear, cymbals crash like they should have been... even with it on, there is no sibilance or even consider harsh. I think it may suit your preference. The treble is no way affecting the rest of the sound spectrum, its design for its cross feed purposes but I use it for very dark recording. The cable also plays a part in improving the sonic clarity of the phone but nothing works better than having a treble switch.
 
This treble switch 1 is not heavy handed at all, it just adds a little sparkle and a hint of clarity in the voice. With this amp, It just brought the HD650 to a new sonic level. It still retains all its unique charatcer, lush mids, full sound.. etc but with an extended high. Purist may not apply here. I hope that would remove any so called "veil" but its pretty costly for all these changes. If you are like me madly in love with HD650, then go for it. Frankly, I think I will seldom use any treble switch at all (except for super dark recording)but just for others who find it "veil" - it works. As mention earlier - if you want to save some money, then Marantz vintage like the 2238 will sound super fatastic
with tonal control of bass, mid and treble and way more power than needed for HD650. So with all these improvement - more power, tonal control and cable change the, you will completely change your perception of HD650... I am one of them.