[gokica]

Quote:

I don't like the term either. The HD650 through my setup is very transparent. I don't get the sense there is a curtain between me and the performers. In fact it's the opposite. The sound is rich, yet detailed and coherent. It does engulf you with great warmth, but there is still a nice sense of air and separation of elements. The HD650 doesn't just present a clear window into the music, it pulls you through the opening to be amongst it.
 
It's often stated the HD650 is very forgiving. I don't think this is entirely accurate. It's simply forgiving of harsh treble inherent in the recording or a component. What it won't gloss over are deficiencies and mismatches upstream. Anyone who labels the HD650 as veiled or slow has not had the pleasure of truly hearing it IMO.

Absolutely. By using this term a specific type of sound signature is being misinterpreted.
 
I spent lots of time comparing the headphones with other "harsher" sounding cans but never got to the point of experiencing any sort of barrier for the sound coming from HD 650 even if the amp is far from being ideal. On the contrary. The headphones are truly able to raise my attention to all those tiny details which my ear and brain would usually skip if those details are even for a bit more "exaggerated".
 
Also I completely agree regarding the "forgiving" and "slow" characterizations of the phones. It is usually taken out of context and generalized. They are not like that at all. Since it is my ears in question I am being subjective but I am most certain that these terms only bring confusion for the potential users who may get the wrong idea of what HD 650 are capable of.

 

[IEMCrazy]

I still say the true "veil" is usually the result of bad amp matching or impedance mismatching.  On my Micro Amp I did hear the infamous veil.  On my E11 and Lyr I do not. 
 
Like the OP here said it was only noticed after switching back from Denons.   I can switch back and forth between K702(

) and HD650 and still hear no such veil that was distinctly present to me on the Micro. 
 
I think the bigger problem is the invasive ranting of "the Sennheiser Veil" years back.  Everyone hears the laid back, forgiving sound and thinks "OMG, it's that veil everyone talked about!" regardless of whether their equipment is really producing the muffled sound or not.  I also think the original black silk screened version made that phrase more common which makes people who go searching for information on them instantly think "veil" when they hear the laid back sound.

 

[DWbirdseye]

No doubt the amp has everything to do with the sound quality of the phones. I received my HD 650's yesterday and while waiting for my Ibasso DX 100 to arrive, I hooked up my very nice but underpowered PA2V2 to the 650's and the amp was overwhelmed. This phone requires a neutral sounding amp with power. As previously discussed, a darker sounding amp does not complement these phones. The veil description was a mis-characterization, that some folks ran with as fact. A veil suggests that somebody threw a sheet or cover over the sonic presentation.

 
Quote:

I still say the true "veil" is usually the result of bad amp matching or impedance mismatching.  On my Micro Amp I did hear the infamous veil.  On my E11 and Lyr I do not. 
 
Like the OP here said it was only noticed after switching back from Denons.   I can switch back and forth between K702(

) and HD650 and still hear no such veil that was distinctly present to me on the Micro. 
 
I think the bigger problem is the invasive ranting of "the Sennheiser Veil" years back.  Everyone hears the laid back, forgiving sound and thinks "OMG, it's that veil everyone talked about!" regardless of whether their equipment is really producing the muffled sound or not.  I also think the original black silk screened version made that phrase more common which makes people who go searching for information on them instantly think "veil" when they hear the laid back sound.

 

 

[atomiccow]

People have been talking about this veil crap for ages. They were talking about it 4 years ago when I bought the 650 and they are still talking about it now. I've never understood the sentiment to using this description.
 
To say it is "veiled" implies that there is inherently something wrong with it and that it can be "unveiled". That is to say people think Sennheiser made a mistake it the design and that it can be fixed. To my experience listening for the thousands of hours I've put on it, on the myriad of setups high end and low end I've tried it on this is not true. The HD650 sounds like the HD650 no matter what you put it on. Its just a matter of whether the bass gets a tighter or the treble cleaner. You can't give this thing an open airy top end like a Grado. Fundamentally I have never heard it change, that is to say ever been "unveiled". The HD650 has smoothed over treble, that's just the way it is. If you're looking for an "unveiled" HD650 you need to find another headphone. You can't "fix" the 650 because it's not broken. Face the fact that you just don't like it.

 

[johnman1116]

I dont have a hd650 but have been reading up on it for a good while and will be purchasing one when my Bottlehead Crack finally gets here.
Anyways, i have read about the hd650's great ability to scale well with amp, better amp makes the hd650 better and better.
 
I believe the "veil" to be a combination of many different factors like its general "laid back" sound signature, sonic or musical preference or comparisons to "brighter" / more "exciting" headphones, under-amplification, etc. 
 
obviously the hd650 is an amazing headphone, been out since 03 and has a crazy fan base even with all the new orthodynamics, planars and whatever. its in the great little price bracket that is very affordable without too much diminishing returns (imo) and is still a reference class headphone that does what it does amazingly.
so we can conclude there is nothing wrong with the headphone; there is just something wrong with you
 
(sorry, im not talking to the OP directly, just more of a general statement ^___^ )
 
Quote:

Ok guys, there may be something to this "veil" after all.  Just when I thought it went away.  Ok so someone posted on here about using their vintage marantz amp to power the HD-650s.  Well wouldnt you know, I've had one sitting in my room all my life--completely forgot about it.  Here's the set up--IPOD touch to Nuforce ICON HDP to marantz amp to 650s. 
 
This really brought the 650s to life.  I did extensive comparing between 650s with the nuforce alone and with the nuforce + marantz combo.  and the marantz amp definately brings the vocals to the forefront.  I definately notice a "veil" between the two setups.  actually Its more than just a veil.  theres just no comparison.  The marantz makes these things sound incredible.  The drums and guitar sound so much clearer/real/brought to life.  I cant explain. 
 
So YES THERE IS A VEIL ON UNPROPERLY AMPED HD-650s.
 
I am indebted to AUDIOWOOD for his comment earlier.  I'm really pissed that I was so close to never knowing good amp can bring out a pair of headphones.
 
All I have to say is that If you have hd-650s, make sure you have a powerful amp.
 
My only problem is that the marantz has this terrible hissing noise that is bothering the crap outta me.  Anyone know how to fix this?

 
and if you dont like the hd650s sound, there is always the hd600 and if you dont like that, there's always grado

 

[johnman1116]

+1
 
Quote:

People have been talking about this veil crap for ages. They were talking about it 4 years ago when I bought the 650 and they are still talking about it now. I've never understood the sentiment to using this description.
 
To say it is "veiled" implies that there is inherently something wrong with it and that it can be "unveiled". That is to say people think Sennheiser made a mistake it the design and that it can be fixed. To my experience listening for the thousands of hours I've put on it, on the myriad of setups high end and low end I've tried it on this is not true. The HD650 sounds like the HD650 no matter what you put it on. Its just a matter of whether the bass gets a tighter or the treble cleaner. You can't give this thing an open airy top end like a Grado. Fundamentally I have never heard it change, that is to say ever been "unveiled". The HD650 has smoothed over treble, that's just the way it is. If you're looking for an "unveiled" HD650 you need to find another headphone. You can't "fix" the 650 because it's not broken. Face the fact that you just don't like it.

 
im pretty sick of people talking about it too... 
and im only a lowly head-fi'er!
 
in the end, just enjoy the music 

 
 

 

[nicholars]

Why do people think that smooth, non harsh treble = Veiled?
 
Would you rather horrible high pitched ear drum ruining, unrealistic treble and then call it "unveiled"?
 
They have slightly rolled off upper treble and are not as crisp sounding as some headphones.... This means they do not fatigue your ears and also sound smooth and realistic... This is not a "fault" it is a design feature.
 
I agree they are a TINY bit on the slow side compared to some other headphones but it really is exagerated... Overall they are an excellent pair of headphones... Especially combined with a contrasting pair for different genres.

 

[loopfreak]

My friend has a "Dead Room" , drums inside which he practice side from guitar, and that treble did not sound smooth and wooly. That what are you talking is a personal preference and has nothing to do with real highs, so if you would label it as"personal preferences" you and other that read your post would be avoiding confusion.

 

[nigeljames]

Quote:

Why do people think that smooth, non harsh treble = Veiled?
 
Would you rather horrible high pitched ear drum ruining, unrealistic treble and then call it "unveiled"?
 
They have slightly rolled off upper treble and are not as crisp sounding as some headphones.... This means they do not fatigue your ears and also sound smooth and realistic... This is not a "fault" it is a design feature.
 
I agree they are a TINY bit on the slow side compared to some other headphones but it really is exagerated... Overall they are an excellent pair of headphones... Especially combined with a contrasting pair for different genres.

 
Smooth non-harsh treble treble does not equal veiled, but the lack of high frequencies and recession of what is left combined with a recessed midrange, lack of speed leading to confusing sound on complex music and lack of deep and well controlled bass all lead to that conclusion.
 
I had 2 HD650's (first got stolen) and I did not realise its faults until I heard better, then it all became crystal clear. I have heard HD650's on a number of good quality amps playing music I know well and the lack of detail and definition, which I believe leads to the veiled effect, was always plainly obvious.  The only thing I have never done is hear a balanced pair.
 
When you hear better you will know why the HD650's are called veiled

 
 

 

[nicholars]

Mmm Nice.... I have tried various headphones and the Midrange on the HD650 is NOT recessed at all....
 
Slightly distant maybe but it is prominent and not recessed at all.
 
You can get better sound in different specific areas but I think the HD650 overall sound is very nice....
 
Best thing would be have a pair of HD650 and also something like Denon D5000 or ultrasone for other genres... Perfect combo

 

[nigeljames]

Quote:

Mmm Nice.... I have tried various headphones and the Midrange on the HD650 is NOT recessed at all....
 
Slightly distant maybe but it is prominent and not recessed at all.
 
You can get better sound in different specific areas but I think the HD650 overall sound is very nice....
 
Best thing would be have a pair of HD650 and also something like Denon D5000 or ultrasone for other genres... Perfect combo

I don't know how you can say 'slightly distant' and 'prominant' at the same time.
I did not feel that the midrange was any more than slightly recessed until I heard other phones.
 
Where in the UK are you based?
 

 

[gokica]

Quote:

 
Smooth non-harsh treble treble does not equal veiled, but the lack of high frequencies and recession of what is left combined with a recessed midrange, lack of speed leading to confusing sound on complex music and lack of deep and well controlled bass all lead to that conclusion.
 

 
Oh how interesting. This is a revelation brother. I am selling these phones now. I will be jumping into the "beats" wagon.

 

[Satellite_6]

Quote:

 
Smooth non-harsh treble treble does not equal veiled, but the lack of high frequencies and recession of what is left combined with a recessed midrange, lack of speed leading to confusing sound on complex music and lack of deep and well controlled bass all lead to that conclusion.
 
 

 
I can see where you are coming from, but this can all be fixed with some very minor EQing IMO. :-/
 
It is essentially a non-issue and people blow it out of proportion. 
 
BTW, @ OP, YES they will sound veiled if under-powered! 
 
 

 

[nigeljames]

Quote:

 
Oh how interesting. This is a revelation brother. I am selling these phones now. I will be jumping into the "beats" wagon.

Although you have probably gathered that I am not a fan of the HD650's I would not put then in the same class as the beats

 

[nigeljames]

Quote:

 
I can see where you are coming from, but this can all be fixed with some very minor EQing IMO. :-/
 
It is essentially a non-issue and people blow it out of proportion. 
 
 

I don't do EQing so the only way to fix the 'issue' for me will be to change phones!
 
I can fully agree that for someone who wants a laid back, smooth phone may find the HD650's are perfect for their needs. As I listen to rock and metal their flaws are very apparent.