[Gopher]

Hey guys, some of you may recognize me though I don't post too often anymore, as my focus has been on speaker audio. I am very interested in ripping all of my CDs to a lossless compression and using a high end media center solution to feed my big rig.

To preface things: I am an analog man. I do the bulk of my listening with a pretty high end, but not ridiculous, turntable and low output mc cartridge. For perspective my cartridge retails for ~$4k.

I don't expect digital to equal it by any means, but I do want to convey that though I am new to the notion of using my computer as a source I am not new to high end sound.

I've generally ignored the Squeezebox/Airport Express revolution and have preferred to go the dedicated source route. I've used a Berendsen CDP-1 for the last few years which I bought (Tyson's recommendation) after preferring it greatly to the Meridian G08 I owned. But to be honest, it mostly sits idly while I listen to vinyl.

I have a lot of great music in digital format and am finally looking to get with the times. Doing some reading at audio asylum, it appears people have abandoned pretty high end CDPs in favor of the computer -> Dac or SB -> DAC and I'm wondering if this would be a good solution for me.

I see a lot of cheap USB and conventional dacs these days all promising high end sound but I'm curious as to the price point at which they actually begin to deliver.

I imagine using a computer with lossless music files can make a good transport, but I'm clueless as to where to begin.

My computer is not near my hifi, but I could always build another one cheaply if using a computer w/ sound card is the best way to go (would a Squeezebox be a better option?).

What kind of DACs should I be considering? USB/ spdif? A dac implementing the Sabre32 but 9018 chip is coming out which seems interesting, but what would I need to do 32 bit sound? Could a SB feed it? Could a regular sound card?

Please fill me in on the basics or point me to any good FAQs.



CLIFFS NOTES:

What should I expect to spend to get high end sound from lossless audio source?

At what price point do DACs get competent? Do the cheaper ones like what I see at Pacific Valves or the China made units live up to their promises?

USB DACs or traditional digital inputs? (I have an X-Fi Extreeme Gamer)

Is a PC a better transport then a Squeezebox type solution?

 

[spacemanspliff]

Redwine Audio makes a very nice solution for you I believe. Or perhaps a Logitech Transpoter Network Music player.

 

[gevorg]

Most of today's USB DACs do not have a highend USB interface, which limits you to very small selection of possible high end USB DACs. To greatly increase your options, you can use a separate highend transport to a DAC. Some good starting points for your research:

- Wavelength Audio USB DACs. Quite expensive (~$2000+), but use nice tubes, Sabre DAC, and one of the best implemented USB interface.

- Lavry DA11 USB (~$1500). Good middle point between cheap Chinese options and megabuck gear like Wavelength. There is also a Benchmark DAC1 USB, but it will probably make you, the analog guy, run away from computer audio.

- Squeezebox Touch + any DAC of your choice.

 

[Gopher]

Thanks for that suggestion, Spacemen. I've been intrigued by some of RWA's various other efforts and this looks promising.

gevorg,

Good information. When you say separate high end transport I assume you're referring to a better quality sound card solution? Like those Asus cards? Obviously a major purpose of my curiosity is wanting to get away from CDs.

I was reading about the Wavelength Proton a little bit ago. I discovered a site with some good basic info (computeraudiophile.com) and I almost bit on the one on audiogon. I decided it best to do my research first--probably a bad move as it sold pretty quick.

Actually the DAC that piqued my curiosity is going to feature the new Sabre32 Dac (9018): Asylum Trader - Eastern Electric DAC 001

Can a normal transport take advantage of its capability?

Squeezebox seems like a better option for me. I could probably build a system as cheap as a used squeezebox, but I wouldn't mind avoiding the hassle. Is it really a descent transport though?

If I were to mate a squeezebox with something like a Musical Fidelity Trivista dac would that serve up similar performance to a trivista CDP? (better???) Those dacs seem to be at a good place price wise and I had an A308cr CD player by them I liked a lot.

 

[gevorg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gopher /img/forum/go_quote.gif gevorg, Good information. When you say separate high end transport I assume you're referring to a better quality sound card solution? Like those Asus cards? Obviously a major purpose of my curiosity is wanting to get away from CDs.

Both sound cards and external interfaces can be highend transports. The major difference is that internal sound cards are vulnerable to the EMI/EFI of the computer, which means their performance will/might vary from one setup to another. To improve internal sound card performance, some people go as far as modding the hardware of the computer like EMI shielding, underclocking CPU, using SSD hard drives, etc. Instead, it is much easier to use an external interface like asynchronous USB or a networked connection.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gopher /img/forum/go_quote.gif I was reading about the Wavelength Proton a little bit ago. I discovered a site with some good basic info (computeraudiophile.com) and I almost bit on the one on audiogon. I decided it best to do my research first--probably a bad move as it sold pretty quick.

Proton has the same amazing USB technology as the more expensive Wavelength gear, but its DAC section is nothing special. I never heard it, but I won't be surprised if its equivalent to something like a Squeezebox. (i.e. excellent transport, so-so D-to-A).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gopher /img/forum/go_quote.gif Actually the DAC that piqued my curiosity is going to feature the new Sabre32 Dac (9018): Asylum Trader - Eastern Electric DAC 001 Can a normal transport take advantage of its capability?

A good computer transport should give the same or better performance as any other CDP as a transport.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gopher /img/forum/go_quote.gif Squeezebox seems like a better option for me. I could probably build a system as cheap as a used squeezebox, but I wouldn't mind avoiding the hassle. Is it really a descent transport though?

A computer at the price of squeezebox will still need a highend transport.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gopher /img/forum/go_quote.gif If I were to mate a squeezebox with something like a Musical Fidelity Trivista dac would that serve up similar performance to a trivista CDP? (better???) Those dacs seem to be at a good place price wise and I had an A308cr CD player by them I liked a lot.

In theory, Squeezebox should equal or better many CDPs. In reality, auditioning is the only way to find out for sure.

 

[jeycam]

I'd go for the music server (a small computer working as a storage only) and Logitech Transporter which you can control with an iPod Touch or so.

 

[Billyk]

Lossless files on my computers is just about all I listen to anymore. I don't think I have anything that could compete with your system it sounds pretty special.
I think you may want to start out with something simple and I would recommend the Gamma 2 from AMB Labs, it's DIY, but don't let that put you off, there are builders out there, MisterX comes to mind. It sounds great but it can also handle USB, coax, and toslink and may be used to take USB in and output spdif if you want to upgrade to a "higher end" type. At any rate it would be an inexpensive intro into PC based audio.
Ripping and playing have not been addressed yet. I would recommend dbPoweramp for ripping, it is a great product and makes it easy to create accurate rips and gathering the metadata like cover art and album info a snap.
For playback I like Foobar because it's easy to configure for bit perfect playback and file management is pretty good too. I hesitate to recommend a player as they are a personal choice kind of thing. You do want bit perfect output to insure the data stream is unmolested by the computer on it's way to the DAC.
For tag management, something that you will get familiar with using the computer as a source, I love MP3Tag, freeware, but definitely worth a donation!

I love using my PC for music, I listen to mostly live music that I collect and not having to burn a CD every time. I hope tyhat I provided some insights.

 

[Gopher]

Thanks for answering my completely noob questions. I've decided on a DAC that fits well into my target price point. I'm going to pre-order an Eastern Electric Dac with the Sabre32 9018 chip and toggleable output stage between tube and opamp: Eastern Electric DAC

I use their preamp with the psu upgrades along with their phonostage in my main system and am very, very satisfied with their performance in absolute terms (not just for the money).

Next question: Whats the best media server transport solution for this? I wanna stay under $300 here. One of the squeezeboxes (touch looks interesting)? Airport Express? Something like this: SMC EZ Stream Wireless Audio Adapter w/Digital Output - eBay (item 220495281990 end time Oct-24-09 18:05:54 PDT) ?

Is there something I haven't considered that would be better even if a little over my budget?

 

[Billyk]

Can't say for sure as I have not had any personal experience with them. A quick look at the Squeezbox shows that the Classic and Transporter have the words "Bit Perfect" in the specs and the Touch does not. My opinion is that you would want to use something that would get the data stream to the DAC as unmolested as possible so would want to use something that claims bit perfect output to the DAC. YMMV.
[Edit] BTW, looked up the DAC, sounds very nice. I am sure you won't be disappointed. All the more reason to get the transport right.

 

[Gopher]

hmm--very good point on the bit perfect. I assumed that was the case with all SBs due to their popularity as sources, but I will narrow my focus to ones capable of it. Hopefully it was an omission in the writing of the touch as the ergonomics/coolness factor of it seems high.

I really doubt I'll be disappointed with the DAC. The designer and US distributor share very similar sonic priorities to me and offer great products well below what their legitimate worth is.

I think the only downside of this is the wait! It will give me the opportunity to do my due diligence in transport research though...


Speaking of transports, I just want to make sure I'm understanding correctly--it appears that to get an equal quality transport from a PC as a basic SB I'll be spending more on the computer? If this is the case I'm leaning towards a SB... I hear PSU mods make a big difference as a transport?

 

[Billyk]

You really don't need a lot of horsepower in a PC to act as a music server. A boatload of disk and a good backup are essential. I keep two disk sets for my music and keep them synced to be sure I don't loose anything. Almost two TBs and still adding almost daily!
A decent PC of recent manufacture should be fine, Vista with a Duo type chip and 4Gb ram will be all you need.
Power supplies are important, but just how important on the digital side... I am not enough of an expert here but I think there should not be a need like the analog side has with the fancy caps and all. I have happily used USB power sources so the SB's power supply will most likely be fine. That being said if you were going to use the SB's analog then a power supply mod/upgrade would probably be in order. You have that righteous DAC heading your way so I would not think it an issue!

 

[Gopher]

Thanks a lot, Billy.

I just purchased a Squeezebox Duet gently used for a good price. I'll be using that as my primary transport and suppose now that its ordered I ought to get a move on my ripping!

Now to investigate a cheap power supply for the duet. I don't really want to spend the cash boulder charges, but from what I've read something nicer is warranted.

 

[etiolate]

are you gonna buy your computer made or assemble it yourself? computers are easy to assemble and you can save a lot of money that way if you want to spend a couple hours making one...

 

[Gopher]

I actually purchased a SB duet last night for $200 shipped. I've built plenty of computers in my day and wasn't at all concerned with assembly--I just suspect this might be a cheaper route of achieving equal or better results. Also I don't really want a tower in my den at this time.

I'm tempted at the moment to buy an oritek modified Zhaolu D1 on audiogon to suit me until the Eastern Electric DAC 001 ships...

Is there another dac for under $200 used I should consider that would suit me well temporarily and resell for what I paid for it in 3 months? The $575 Benchmark on the gon is damn tempting, but I shouldn't lay out that much--even temporarily.

 

[Shike]

Consider this:

You like your analog sound a lot right? Consider using your turntable to convert vinyl to lossless on your computer. The largest issue with digital formats is crappy mastering . . . something vinyl is generally sheltered from.