Has the full capability of 16 bit/44.1k been realized yet?

[daltonlanny]

Hello,
Opinions on this, please:
Considering the improvements to the sonics of CD players over the last couple of years, how much more can possibly be achieved and/or extracted before there is no more room for improvement and the full capabilities and limitations of the 16 bit/44.1khz is fully realized, in your opinion?
Do you think the best players are close to being to the absolute limitations of the 16 bit/44.1khz system, or do you still think there is even more room for improvement?
All opinions and comments welcome.

 

[DennyL]

I would think there could always be improvements, but in the case of 16 bit/44kHz they will become increasing small as they press asymptotically against the limit imposed by insufficient bit depth and insufficient sampling frequency. Other media with greater bit depth and sampling frequency can obviously perform better, as can some analogue media such as vinyl.

 

[Jigglybootch]

I think they've gone about as far as they can go with 16/44.1. Of course, the way CDs are mastered nowadays we really won't get much out of it anyway.

 

[jcx]

AD, TI, AKM, Cirrus/Crystal flagship DACs all have better analog output specs than Redbook Audio CD can encode digitally

even allowing for advanced noise shaped dither improving percieved resolution the better DAC's analog output principle harmonic distortion components will be in the noise floor

assuming errror free data (after Redbook's built in error correction), low jitter clock/reclocking, good analog electronics there is very little room for improvement - perhaps playing with upsampling/image filtering - but even in DSP there is little theoretical room for improvement when starting with Redbook 16/44 PCM

 

[Mr_Sukebe]

There's always scope for improving virtually anything if you throw enough money at it. Yes the digital circuits may be getting quite close, but CD players contain a lot of analogue elements too, meaning that there will always be the opportunity for 0.1 picosecond clocks, internal cables made of unobtanium hand wired by some retired grand master in the foothills of Honshu.
On the other hand, see what Esoteric launch in 2009 (no I don't know anything about their release schedule), it's simply that I rate the X-01se as the best player I've yet heard, so that's a good starting point.

 

[Leporello]

Quote:

Originally Posted by daltonlanny /img/forum/go_quote.gif Do you think the best players are close to being to the absolute limitations of the 16 bit/44.1khz system, or do you still think there is even more room for improvement? All opinions and comments welcome.

I believe even many mid-priced players easily exceed the "limitations" of the redbook standard (whether these limitations have any practical signifigance is another matter). However, even the best recordings do not. I have never heard of a recording that comes even close to the 93 - 96 db dynamic range allowed by the redbook standard.


Regards,

L.

 

[sejarzo]

Some might point to the continuing evolution of vinyl and say that there will be redbook improvements for many years to come.

My best guess is that CD will be wrung out faster than vinyl--the pace of all technological progress is getting faster.

But as many note.......the limitation these days is not the technology per se, but the recording process. Garbage in, garbage out.

 

[M_Bipartitus]

I'd second the comment that the mastering is the limitation in many cases. Even the best mastering techs have time limits that prevent them from getting the best quality. I also don't see this improving as there is so much interest these days on portable and online music. As usage increases for mp3 and other lower quality formats, there are less incentives for the big studios to spend as much time to get a quality recording.

I would like to think there is more room for improvement. Perhaps the papers that B&W wrote about developing there diamond tweeters offers some hope. That is they claimed sonic improvements despite no measurable differance believed to be precievable. If they are right in there paper we may be able to hear differences that we are not thought to be able to hear. In such a case there could be improvement by exceeding the specification in a way that was not expected to make a difference.

Just the ramblings of a physicist...

 

[bigshot]

Mastering is ALWAYS the problem. CD sound is able to give as good sound as your system and your ears can handle.

See ya
Steve

 

[audioengr]

There are several areas where improvement is still possible:

• Reduction of jitter
• D/A converter chip noise and accuracy improvements
• Post D/A filter improvements
• D/A digital filter improvements

Great improvements have been made in all of these recently.

Steve N.

 

[epaludo]

I agree that there is a lot to be improved, but for me the major problem is in the recordings. We, audiophiles, can't control recordings. We can get brilliants headphones, DAC's, vinyl and CD player, amps, etc. but we can't do anything about the recordings. The better our gear get, it'll definitely improve the playback quality, but recording is our major limitation, IMHO ...

 

[audioengr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by epaludo /img/forum/go_quote.gif I agree that there is a lot to be improved, but for me the major problem is in the recordings. We, audiophiles, can't control recordings. We can get brilliants headphones, DAC's, vinyl and CD player, amps, etc. but we can't do anything about the recordings. The better our gear get, it'll definitely improve the playback quality, but recording is our major limitation, IMHO ...

Agreed. We modders need to twist some arms in the studios and get some things improved there. Lord knows I've tried. Recording engineers believe that measurements are the end-all. Most believe that the cheapest cables are good enough.....

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

 

[paba]

Hi all,

please read

http://www.tcelectronic.com/media/lu...tion_tmt20.pdf
http://www.tcelectronic.com/media/ni...0_0dbfs_le.pdf

the record labels are pushing the loudness wars and waisting any R&D efforts on the gear side.

cheers
paba

 

[Lord Chaos]

Add my voice to those lamenting the quality of modern recording. My system is by no means the best, but it's very good and I easily hear the differences in how recordings are made. Sometimes they use great mics, other times the mic can't show the difference between a ride cymbal and a crash. Sometimes the instruments are all mushed together, sometimes each one sparkles in the mix. I wish more attention were paid to this.

So, I'd say that right now the biggest limitation to how music sounds is in the studio. Beyond that, recent experience leads me to believe the most important contributor to sound quality is the DAC used for playback. A good DAC will make those few good CDs sound wonderful.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by daltonlanny /img/forum/go_quote.gif Considering the improvements to the sonics of CD players over the last couple of years, how much more can possibly be achieved and/or extracted before there is no more room for improvement and the full capabilities and limitations of the 16 bit/44.1khz is fully realized, in your opinion?

Has there really been that much improvement? some things like clocks and error correction have doubtless progressed but this has to be weighed up against the fall in the quality of transports for instance.
On balance a top end machine from 20 years ago can still equal or better a top end machine from today in many respects.
This is both the essential strength and flaw of CD. It's spec was finalised in the 1970s and no matter what you do downstream of that in playback it won't alter the fundamental strengths or shortcomings of this...