has Anyone tried The AD-8512 Opamp?
May 19, 2002 at 11:25 PM Post #16 of 39
I still encourage you to try the AD8512. The worst that can happen is that you end up eventually switching chips again. I think the AD8512 or AD823 is probably better than the OPA2604 for dual SO8 replacement.
 
May 20, 2002 at 5:56 AM Post #17 of 39
I dislike the OPA-2604 and the OPA-604(Sig. Ver.) the AD-712 while old is a warm and musical IC however dark sounding it is a step above old Bi-Fet types like the LF-353, but not as good as the Current crop of opamps. if i were to use the AD-8610 as an I/V conv. and i think it would be just wonderfull at that then Reduce the rail voltages to +/- 12 volts The 8610 data Sheet sugests an LOD to reduce 15 volts to 12.

BTW: the AD823 is available as an SO8 and is so far one of the best sounding duals i have tried The AD-746 is also great. (Dual AD-744)
 
May 20, 2002 at 1:14 PM Post #19 of 39
Hi there,

thanks for the responses...much appreciated.

I am looking for a somewhat warm midrange sound, but accuracy none the less. The Ad8610 gave me this sound to a greater extent. I also love that deep clear bass that the ad8610 gave me.


As this last buffer/servo stage probably has the greatest effect on the sound of the unit, I would love something that is very musical and clear.

I will try the ad8512 first then the 823 if necessary as you suggest. I only wonder if the noise reading of the 823 at 16 is anything to be concerned about.

Note also that AD has updatd the specs for the ad8610 to rev b.
They have included some more direct reference to the 8620 so maybe it is actually in the offing.

http://www.analog.com/productSelecti...D8610_20_b.pdf

thanks much.

I have to say that your input is making this whole experience very enjoyable.
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May 22, 2002 at 1:15 PM Post #20 of 39
Well I did do it...
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I put them into the buffer/servo position.

Tthere is now greater transparency and the the soundstage became undoubtedly deeper and wider.

I tried the ad8512s first becouse of their lower noise. It seems to be reflected in the increased soundstage.

Still not sure about the midrange...still cooler than when I had the ad8610 as the I/Vs, but only replaced these with the ad825s on Friday so I guess I have to leave it all alone now for everything to break in and get a good reading.

Overall the ad8512s are definetly better than the ad712s at this point.

When I get back in I might try the 8065 fastfets in the I/V and/or replacing the opa2123s mix amps with ad8512 also ?
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I am wondering of the low noise of the fastfets may improve on the ad825s.

any thoughts?
 
May 22, 2002 at 9:37 PM Post #21 of 39
Hi Phopson,

I've been insanely busy between the META42 project and converting from Communicator 4.79 to Mozilla RC2.

I did manage to download and read the new AD8610/20 pdf. It looks like the AD8620 may actually come out sometime this year.
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This does not help you due to your voltage requirements.

You mentioned you needed dual SO8, so the AD825 is out. The dual FastFET AD8066 is not available yet. That leaves the AD823 if you care to try it.

I will order some AD8065 chips and BrownDog them eventually.
 
May 23, 2002 at 8:22 AM Post #22 of 39
Quote:

I only wonder if the noise reading of the 823 at 16 is anything to be concerned about.


The spec is 16nV/rt. Hz. So, you take the frequency you're interested in, take the square root and multiply it by 16 nV to find out how much parasitic noise the op-amp will inject at that frequency.

If you look at figure 15 in the datasheet, you'll see that it isn't a flat curve like the spec suggests. If it were flat, the above method would actually work. But, at low frequencies the noise rises some, which is why the spec is written as "16 nV/rt. Hz at 10 kHz". They're telling you that the curve has leveled off to 16 nV/rt. Hz at 10 kHz. There's a good explanation of why these curves aren't flat in the wonderful TI app note "Op Amps for Everyone" by Mancini et al., in section 11.3.13. Go download a copy. Now.
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Once you get past the low frequencies, the curve is flat, so you can use the spec to find out how much noise it adds. Doing the math, at 10 kHz, the op-amp will add 1.6 mV of noise. Now multiply that by the gain of your op-amp -- let's say it's 10, so we get 16 mV of noise. In a CD player, the output signal will be in the 1-2V range. Relative to 1V, 16mV is -95 dB. Which is to say, "inaudible".

You undoubtedly see several limitations of this analysis:

1) What if the signal passing through is lower than 1V? Relative noise will be higher.

2) What if the gain is higher than 10? The op-amp's parasitic noise will be magnified more.

3) What about those lower frequencies? This one isn't a problem, because even though the noise level is higher relative to the frequencies' rt. Hz, the frequency value is lower. At 20 Hz with the AD823, figure 15 says that the noise level is about 30 nV/rt. Hz. Using the above example, relative noise would be -117dB.
 
May 25, 2002 at 9:29 AM Post #23 of 39
I installed this opamp into a mil-max socket and then installed sockets in my latest version of my Pocket amp. I had all IC's soldered directly into the Board in keeping with High-Speed lay out Practace and used the layout around the opamp based upon the Evaluation board for the TI # THS-4022. so this Required me to Install Matching sockets on the Board to allow future IC Changes if Needed. The Addition of sockets did not seem to degrade the sound.

My pocket Amp is similar to tangents META42 but done My way using Walt's multil-Loop Feedback topology. IMHO this results in the best sound i have heared from Audio Amps in Monolithic Form. The Ability to controll the amount of Open-loop Gain is quite nice in an Opamp based design. I have tried other attemps to control the opamps open-Loop gain or shall i say reduce it by using matching resistors from the DC offset pins and One to ground and the other to the opamps output. this works with some but not all opamps it depends at what internal node the offset pins are on and is not an option with Dual opamps since Offset control pins are not available. This is the Beauty of Walt's multi-Loop topology. The resistor values around the feedback are also different than tangents. in addition the Power supply is more complex by virtue of Floating the Op-Amp Supply rails on JFET constant curent sources/sinks via 2N5911 dual JFET. with one half as the sink on the positive rail and the other half on the Neg. rail as the curent source. This is followed by a TLE-2426 virtual ground Driver Dedicated to just the opamp. This is bypassed with 1,000uF/10V Low Esr 105 deg Electrolytic and 0.1uF Wima Box Film caps. The Output stage consists of a paralel set of two EL-2001 Buffers. My MDR-V6's just don't sound dynamic enough with just one EL-2001 per Channel. The output stage uses two 2,200uF/10 volt low Esr 105 deg Electrolytics Per rail. Local bypasses for the buffers are 0.68uF/160 Volt wima box film capacitors. The virtual ground driver for the Output stage is from an EL-201 driven from another TLE-2426 Virtual ground driver as Tangent did in the Meta42. this is built upon a teflon Board Rodgers ultralam-2000. The board uses a full non broken ground plane with the Plane not around the opamp's inverting input so as to not induce any unwanted capacitence at this Critical node.


Ill get to the sound in awhile since i have to do somthing at the moment and The Microsoft network will disconnect me if left unattended and ill lose all i have typed so far.

OK I AM BACK> THE SOUND In Direct comparrison to the AD-823 the AD-8512 sounds Dark without the Splendid soundstage of the 823. the width is almost as good but the depth is flat, on track 10 of (Stereophile Test CD2) http://www.me-au.com/stphile.html the person walking around the Church is a full 360 deg soundfield on the 823 with the 8512 this circle takes on an oval Presentation. The Clarity of the 8512 is Good and is slightly cleener than the 823 but this my be an ilusion due to 8512's lack of upper otave extention. On Flute Music this upper otave is Mised on the 8512. on(R. Carlos Nakai's Ancestral Voices Canyon#CR-7010) http://www.canyonrecords.com/cr7010.htm the natural ambience of the Flute and guitar turn from a nice 3D pannarama soundfield with Lots of natuaral echo on the AD-823 to a Rolled off 2D Presentation with the 8512. The low Frequency extention on the 8512 is better than the 823 on (BachBustersTrack 15, Time warp track1, and california Project track 6 & track 15. All on Telarc. at www.telarc.com/ the bass flat Kicks But on the 8512 vs the 823. this the 8512 is deffintly a rock and roll Opamp, with softened Highs. The Midbass on the 8512 is also more natural sounding than on the 823. on the R. carlos Nakai recording the acoustic guitar takes on a slight tubby sound with the 823 where as this is not Present with the 8512. The mids are about the same with the exception that the 8512 seems to lack some of the inner detail of the 823. The Blessing with the 8512 comes from Very low power consumption drawing about 2 ma Less than the 823 with +/- 7.4 Volt supply rails. The DC ofset vs supply voltage is also more stable with the 8512 than it is with the 823.

In Conclusion The AD-8512 is a Mixed bag it by no means close to My Beloved AD-8610 in any measure of musicality with the Exception of bass extention and Midbass Accuracy, However still lacking detail in these ranges vs the AD8610. For High End Audio use i think ill wait untill the dual 8610 comes out (AD-8620).

in comparrison To other dual Opamps i listened to at the time of this evaulation The AD-8512 is clearly Better than the OPA-2132,OPA-2134,OPA-2604,AD-712 it is clearly Better in all catigories Sound stage, Punch and Clarity. This makes an OPA-2134 sound vailed and Dark, with a soundstage aproaching Mono. The Oldie But IMHO a Goodie OPA-2107 is better sounding than the AD-8512. However the 2107 is a Di-Fet Opamp like the OPA-627, However the performance of the 2107 is alot less than the 627 But still if a dual OPA-627 is what your after check out the OPA-2107. it sounds Musical and cleen with the Inner detail aproaching that of the 627. In comparrison the the AD-746 it is no contest the 746 wins hands down. This is a dual AD-744 and a wounderfull warm lush musical opamp capable if reavealing sutch subtilies as the decay of echo's and up to the Time the AD-746 is my favorite for Acoustic music.
 
May 25, 2002 at 11:56 AM Post #24 of 39
Hi PPL. The META42 is also Jung multiloop. Piggybacking EL2001/2002 output buffers is encouraged for amps that will drive low impedance headphones. Also note that Tangent's resistor values are just filler for the schematic. They will be tweaked later on after the board is done and we have time to sit down and choose values carefully.

Unfortunately, we could not spare the room for the extra power supply complexity on the META42 board. Perhaps someday we will do a larger no holds barred version that is not constrained by requirements to fit in small cases, with separate power and ground for the opamp and buffers, bigger power supply caps, etc.
 
May 26, 2002 at 11:03 AM Post #25 of 39
I tried that parralelling (4) EL-2001's with (4) EL2002's with great results. Now I Know some of you are thinking what! parralelling different bandwidth parts, well it works in this case, just try it don't Complain or ask why. I posted about this somewhare do a search.
 
May 27, 2002 at 9:27 PM Post #26 of 39
Thanks very much for your info.

That helped me a lot. I now have a plan for my SCD 777es.
I too am finding the ad8512 though quite good, not quite good as the ad8610. I am not sure I am willing to perform surgery on the SCD audio circuit board in order to use ad8610s or 8620s.

I have a 2 tiered attackplanned:

Opamps:
I plan bias my ad825 I/Vs and ad8512 buffer opamps into class A with buffered CRDs. Maybe the ad8512 will improve in mid/hi to compete with ad8610 a bit better

I will try the ad746 as you suggest...sounds even better than ad823s and full of potential...will also bias into class A later.
How do the ad746s compare to the ad8610s?

Down the road will try the ad8065 fastfets in I/V also.


Discreet I/V and audio
Am researching tapping the Current pulse dacs and trying
either the LCAudio Zapfilter or Borberly audio all fetI/V DAC

http://www.borbelyaudio.com/index36.htm

Will install new dedicated balanced out jacks so I can compare
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This is a lot and will take some time anyway what do you think?
Any ideas for better discreet designs?

thanks
 
May 27, 2002 at 10:59 PM Post #27 of 39
I Like Borberly's Designs I agree with him an alot of things and things that IMHO are importent in Audio like Balanced Complimentry Topology From input to output. Cascoding, Jfets and last but surly not the Least Teflon PC Boards. This stuff is Gold Once one uses Teflon You will never go back to fragile FR4 Again. On Teflon the Foils stay put regardless of the Number of times you rework it,unlike FR4 that the Foils come off rather easaly. Teflon is also non Hydroscopic and has great thermal Conductivity. It is also flexible and this can be an advantage. Teflon also has alot lower Dielectric Absorbtion than FR4. Teflon also sounds better. The disadvantage is it is Expensive. check out this link for Teflon Boards http://www.rogers-corp.com/mwu/translations/prod.htm
 
May 29, 2002 at 2:10 AM Post #28 of 39
Noise isn't calculated that way. The graphs given are spectral noise densities. As the name might imply the noise at a specific frequency is 0 just as the mass of something is 0 if the dimensions are infinitesmally small.

Therefore, the noise is calculated as an integration over frequency. Using the equation from Franco:

E_noise= e_noise_white * sqrt(f_corner * ln(f_high/f_low) + f_high - f_low)

using figure 15 of the AD823 datasheet, the noise in the audio range of 10Hz to 100kHz:

16nV*sqrt(220*ln(100k/10)+100k-10)
= 5.1 uV

If we neglect the 1/f noise:

16nV*sqrt(100k-10)
= 5.06 uV
 
May 29, 2002 at 7:19 AM Post #29 of 39
Hmmm, interesting, Joobu. That does make more sense.

So, to apply that to my example, 5.1uV increased by a gain of 10 is 51uV. Relative to a 1V signal that's -86dB.

(Those of you paying attention will notice that I made a second mistake in my previous post -- using my numbers you should get -36dB of noise, which is preposterous to anyone who's heard the AD823.)

If you only calculate noise out to 20kHz, it comes out to -93dB, by the way. Still inaudible.
 

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