[GreatDane]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregorio /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm out of this thread, blind leading the blind. It's not that people are ignorant, I expect this .... G

Please make up your mind.

 

[Max F]

I asked you to stay out of the conversation if the only thing you had to add was that "EQ can't work". You insist that we have to take your word for it and forget everything that we've ever read, measured (with an SPL meter or mic with room correction software) or heard with our own ears - cause of your 20 years of experience.

 

[Max F]

I should also mention that I use a digital parametric EQ for lowering bass peaks in a room, not a graphic EQ as the title of this message header.

Actually, we are probably way off topic anyway!

 

[mbd2884]

I'd rather read what gregorio has to say than what Max F has been repeating like a broken tape over and over please.

 

[scompton]

I'd like to hear what gregorio has to say as well

 

[boomy3555]

You Stay, I'll go, and I'll take my Alesis with me. EQ makes the music sound better to me and beyond that I'd rather just remain ignorant.

Thanks again GREAT DANE for turning me onto the Alesis. It's exactly what I asked for when I resurrected this thread.

 

[GreatDane]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomy3555 /img/forum/go_quote.gif You Stay, I'll go, and I'll take my Alesis with me. EQ makes the music sound better to me and beyond that I'd rather just remain ignorant. Thanks again GREAT DANE for turning me onto the Alesis. It's exactly what I asked for when I resurrected this thread.

You're welcome and I'm glad it's working for you.

Big Bottom Baby!!

 

[Max F]

I'll take my cheap pro-audio Behringer DEQ2496 and the infamous BFD (for my subwoofer) with me too. See ya!

 

[mbd2884]

Bye Bye. Now let's hear some professional experiences. Always interested to read the opinions of experienced professional in the Audio business, whether it be artistic or studio!

But damn! Max F you bought hardware to change the EQ of the music, and the Behringer Feedback Destroyer DSP, do you really need a subwoofer for extra bass in your speaker system, subwoofers in my experience well, the definition of bass cannons, anyways I digress. Do you even like the music you are listening to? Joke, not really

 

[gregorio]

OK, for those who asked:

The two main factors to room acoustics are shape of the room and the absorbtion co-efficients of the materials in the room. The worst shape for a room is some form of cuboid. Sound will reflect and bounce between parallel surfaces either causing standing waves which will artificially amplify or attenuate (remove) certain frequencies. The frequencies of these standing waves is a direct relationship between the wavelength (frequency) and the distance between the parallel surfaces. This relationship doesn't just affect a single frequency but harmonics of that frequency which of course must also be mathematically related to the distance. Furthermore, in a cuboid there are three sets of parallel surfaces (6 sides) and frequencies will interact with just 2, 4 or all six surfaces. This collection of affected frequencies are called room modes and may be relatively easily calculated. There are many online room mode calculators, all you do is enter the dimensions of your room and the room modes (affected frequencies) are all listed - here is a link to a room mode calculator so you can see the room modes for your own room: Room Mode / Standing Wave Calculator

Note that the list of room mode freqs does not mean you will definitely have problems with all these freqs, just that these freqs are the ones you are most likely to have a problem with. It's incredibly rare to have a problem with a single freq, just as rare in fact as having a problem with all of them. The only way to know the problem freqs for sure is to use a spectrum analyser.

From this, it should hopefully appear obvious that using an EQ to correct for these problems is going to be very difficult/impossible. How are you going to know how much of which specific frequencies needs to be cut or boosted? Even if you do know this information, just cutting or boosting these frequencies is still not a fix, the problem is the reflections off the walls, ceiling and floor, just lowering these freqs isn't solving the problem it's just making them slightly less noticable.

So how should we deal with room modes? The most obvious way and the method employed in recording studios is to build the room without any parallel surfaces. Recording studios are always asymetrical, with sloping walls and ceilings. For most homeowners though this isn't a viable option. In this case materials can be placed in the room (on the parallel surfaces) which absorb the problem frequencies so they can't reflect or bounce off the surfaces. You can buy expensive acoustic panels specifically designed for this task although there are many far cheaper DIY solutions which are just as effective.

So why do some professionals suggest EQ as a solution to room modes? In some situations, say live performance venues, where acoustic treatment is not possible, EQ can help to at least lessen the effect slightly of the most problematic frequency. It's far from perfect but better than nothing when there are no other options. If someone recommends EQ to solve problems in a studio or home environment, I would be more than a little sceptical of their claim to be a professional. Of course, it depends on the problem freqs of a particular room. To absorb certain freqs may not be partularly expensive to treat acoustically but might turn out be too intrusive visually (the wife might object!) so again, EQ isn't a good solution but is better than nothing when the real solution isn't viable. Corners in rooms are also usually a problem for trapping and amplifying bass freqs, tiles, mirrors and windows are very reflective and therefore also often cause problems. A simple solution, such as drawing the curtains when critically listening to music can have a significant effect of stopping reflections from windows.

I find it surprising that consumers go out and spend thousands on speakers and then just stick them in thier cuboid sitting room. The perceived quality of a speaker system may be improved by more than 100% by placing the speakers in a decent acoustic environment. So next time you go out with a budget of $3,000 for speakers, spend $2,000 on speakers and $1,000 on room acoustics. The result will be far, far better than sticking $3,000 speakers in an average sitting room.

G

 

[IceClass]

Cool but what about using an EQ as part of a headphone rig?

 

[GreatDane]

Quote:

Originally Posted by IceClass /img/forum/go_quote.gif Cool but what about using an EQ as part of a headphone rig?

Exactly! ...since this thread is about using EQ/processing with headphones not speakers.

Maybe start new thread about using EQ with speakers if he wants to share that info with the newbies. The info is correct but not new to me and many others I'd bet.

IMO, the rules for using EQ with headphones can only be created by the person wearing the headphones.

 

[gregorio]

Quote:

Originally Posted by IceClass /img/forum/go_quote.gif Cool but what about using an EQ as part of a headphone rig?

There are certain problems when using headphones, which are based around the fact that every commercial music product I have ever seen or heard about was specifically designed for listening to using a speaker system. There are several consequences to using headphones, some obvious, some not so obvious.

1. When we hard pan a sound in the mix, let's say hard right, when we listen on speakers, we still hear that sound in our left ear. It is slightly time delayed and has a slightly different EQ characteristic in our left ear but it's still there and our brain both percieves and uses this information (IAD, ITD, etc). In headphones only our right ear will get the sound.

2. A production created on speakers for replay on speakers will take into account the absorbtion of higher frequencies due to the Brownian motion of air particles in a room. This effect is not emulated in headphones.

3. A good mastering engineer understands that consumer listening enviroments have some degree of bass propagation and will compensate for this while mastering. Headphones do not have the same response as a room acoustic to bass freqs.

4. Depending on the genre, various EQ is applied in production and/or mastering to enhance energy or feel. The way this EQ is represented by the average speaker system and room acoustic will be taken into account by a good mastering engineer but cannot be accurately represented in headphones becuase headphone largely eliminate the room acoustics.

5. There are world class producers and mastering engineers, but the range of ability is very wide. Some genres of music are largely or wholely produced in bedrooms by very inexperienced "producers" who may not know anything about mastering or acoustic effects.

So, even as a highly experienced producer, I would have to spend quite some time changing the balance and EQ for each album (or even each track) to "get it right" in my cans and I'd need some professional level parametric EQ. But all I'd be solving is the EQ not any of the other items I mentioned above. In some cases I would recognise the names of certain studios and producers and appreciate that they know what they were doing and wouldn't dream of EQ'ing their work.

I can appreciate that for consumers it can be very difficult to be objective and make a distinction between what they enjoy and what is good. There is music out there that I enjoy but which isn't very good, likewise there is music out there which is excellent but which I don't enjoy. However, I'll always try to evaluate the product in as perfect a listening enviroment as possible without any enhancements. So, for pure enjoyment I am not adamant that EQ shouldn't be used by the consumer but I am in general against the idea. Let me draw an analogy, would you fly to Paris just to go and see the Mona Lisa in the Lovre and then stand looking at the picture wearing sunglasses, or would you remove your sunglasses to try and get a better idea of the colours and contrast used by Da Vinci? If it's the former then I don't suppose using EQ is really going to matter, if you'd remove your sunglasses then you should also really remove your added EQ.

G

 

[SoundCheck88]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nocturnal310 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Distortion comes first to my mind. second...Why buy Amp then? Just Pre-Amp the song from the Equalizer. The Amps purpose is to eliminate the requirement of any Sound EQ. Hmm what headphones u using with EQ?

NO EQ ?? "The Amps purpose is to eliminate the requirement of any Sound EQ." NOT TRUE !!! A EQ CAN WORK WONDERS.!!! IN CERTAIN SITUATIONS -DONT LISTEN TO PEOPLE THAT THINK THEY ARE MORE KNOWLEDGEABLE THEN YOU BECAUSE THEY HAVE MORE EQUIPMENT THEN YOU.!! OR HAVE A TITLE LIKE HEAD SUPREMOS. TO EACH HIS OWN. GOOD LUCK

 

[SoundCheck88]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreatDane /img/forum/go_quote.gif Exactly! ...since this thread is about using EQ/processing with headphones not speakers. Maybe start new thread about using EQ with speakers if he wants to share that info with the newbies. The info is correct but not new to me and many others I'd bet. IMO, the rules for using EQ with headphones can only be created by the person wearing the headphones.

A GREAT PIONT .!! YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD !!!! THAT WAS MY POINT IN MY POST/THREAD EARLIER.THANK YOU FOR REITERATING MY POINT.TAKE CARE .