[MarcusH]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shosta For baroque and early music i can recommend the reviews of goldbergweb

Thank you very much for the link - looks like a great site.

Marcus

 

[Bunnyears]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zumaro Hes not! hes not! hes not! Persuaded?

Actually Rattle is an excellent conductor. The problem lies not with his abilities but with the fact that Gramophon in particular tends to puff up his recordings uniformly so that when he produces something of rare excellence it becomes impossible for the buyer to know this in advance. A great example of this is his work with Mahler. Most of it is extremely well done, but much of the work especially with the City of Birmingham orchestra is not quite in the first rank of Mahler recordings which is what one would think after reading the Gramophon reviews. A few of his recordings, notably his recent M10 with the Berliner Philharmoniker are really first rate.

Lists of "best" or "greatest" recordings are just that, lists. They reflect the editorial viewpoint and personal tastes of the reviewers and/or board of reviewers. They are certainly not infallible. This problem is not just reserved to Gramophon; reviews from other sources also reflect biases and points of view. Gramophon just seems to reserve their "grade inflation" for British and some few European recordings. Because of this, I rarely purchase a gramophon recommendation of a British recording until I find that it is vetted elsewhere or I have been able to hear it.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shosta (I know in Spain one reviewer that worked at the same time for DG).

Thus it's not the artists or the recordings which are the problem but Gramophon and other review sites and compendiums (Classicstoday flogs Gielen's Mahler shamelessly). Whenever one reads these reviews they should take them with the proverbial dose of salt and understand that these are not absolute judgements carved in stone. Unfortunately they are used by newbies to classical as a gold standard, and sometimes I also have to wonder whether there isn't some profit motive involved in this as well. Classicstoday has a stand for recordings with the 10/10 review in Tower brick stores and they also always have a copy of the latest Penguin Guide available for shoppers.

 

[zumaro]

I have to largely agree with you Bunnyears. My main point is I don't particularly care about obtaining "best" versions - what I think is best can vary from day to day and be affected by any number of factors, like for example my wild mood swings. So faced with this I am happy enough to have a general indication from a review that an interpretation is not hopelessly misguided, and reaches a certain quality level, and after that its over to me to enjoy getting to know the interpretation, disagreeing with details, seeing new interpretive points, discussing it with other people, comparing it with other versions and coming to some kind of overall opinion. This includes appreciating the regional biases, and sometimes trying to hear the music through other people's ears.

This to me is much of the enjoyment of listening to music - its a living art that you can interact with and react to. Unluckily recording can turn music into a dead museum piece, in which people come to think that their "reference" recording is in some way the best, or even worse, the only way a piece should sound. Now thats the danger of these books, but use them as a general guide to quality and they are mostly adequate, as well as being a good guide to repertoire, whether an overview of a composer or alerting you to material you might otherwise have overlooked.

I might add (just in case anyone thinks I am being insultingly obvious!) that I realise that most of us here seem to enjoy music for these qualities - we wouldn't be endlessly debating the merits of various Bach cantata cycles if we didn't truly enjoy the differences!

 

[Bunnyears]

Zumaro,

Just so you understand that I am not hopelessly prejudiced against poor Rattle!

I do find that the reference books are usuallly good at pointing out the obvious duds, hehe, except for one which gave a tremendous writeup to a recording that is obviously a clanker (I won't say which, but it's not a cantata). It's just that I've become hopelessy wary of all of the reviews and reviewers at this point and wouldn't spend a dime for any of the so called compendiums when there is so much good information available free of charge on the net.

 

[zumaro]

..and even better with communities like this full of people with opinions worth reading, the chance to interact with each other. Beats a book any day!

 

[Dhw]

I'm already finding I much prefer reading through these forums, rather than the compendiums I've perused...there's a greater divergence of opinion and it's just more entertaining

As for looking for the "best," I realize that much/most/all boils down to opinion (except for when something is downright awful...then people seem to be able to agree more readily, unless they're just exagerating)...but I'm still on a limited budget, and not yet at the point where I can own multiple copies of works to compare and contrast...I'd rather focus on hearing the most I can to find the pieces I really like so that then I can focus on exploring different versions. So I guess I'm looking for options, and it seems like these books will provide them...and it comes down to whether it's better to buy a book with potential biases and limited info, that benefits from being portable, easy to search, and has generally good recommendations, or search the net, and be open to a wider variety of equally valid opinions, but also spend more time searching and not be able to take it with me on the train.

I think the solution comes down to...both! I'm gonna order one of the 2004 guides off Amazon this week, and as a Head-Fi addict (this site coerced me into buying everything in my signature...), keep searching and posting here

 

[mbhaub]

Rattle would make a good thread. Like ANY conductor he has his strong points and weaknesses. But when his weaknesses get a Rosette in the Penguin Guide, I have a problem. I'm talking about his Mahler 2. Is it thrilling? Absolutely. And it goes against the score in so many places that I can't accept it as great Mahler. There's where the average concert goer and record collector will disagree with trained musicians. I can read music, I buy scores, and I play in orchestras. And so much of what Rattle does is in such flagrant disregard to the score that I find it irritating. Same with Jansons, Bernstein and several others. Just play what Mahler wrote. His scores are loaded with very precise and clear directions; he knew conductors would screw it up if he didn't. For me, the score is inviolate. The final word. ALL criticism must be in reference to it. Now obviously there's more to making music that following the score to the letter. There's a certain undefinable quality that the greatest conductors bring. Gielen's Mahler follows the score's every detail. So does Zander. And boy, is there a wide gulf between the two.

Like movies, classical cds are praised by some, damned by others. Go figure.

 

[Bunnyears]

mbhaub,

What did you think of MTT's recording of the 9th?

 

[Mark from HFR]

I always recommend folks to get as many opinions about a recording as they can. Perhaps as a critic, I shouldn't say that

, but it's true! The big guides are useful for information for collecting purposes, though, provided that you take their points-of-view with a grain of salt... or, sometimes, a salt lick... In addition to the Rattle boosterism, I find that the Penguin guide also has a tendency to fawn over von Karajan, who is not among my favorite conductors.

Mark

 

[zumaro]

I thought Karajan's faults were fairly well known by British critics - I don't notice much bias there unless its inflating the worth of his late recordings of Bruckner and Mahler. But those sound pretty good to my ears - the usual glossiness of sound doesn't seem to have got in the way of digging deep into both the Bruckner 8 and Mahler 9 I have heard.

I think I am beginning to be an apologist for big name conductors and Brit critics - this has to stop!

 

[Bunnyears]

I wonder if the Penguin is still recommending Britten's recording of the Brandenburgs? I could never understand that choice either. Gramophon's online List of Recommended Recordings recommends Harnoncourt which is an okay if uninspiring recommendation, especially with the offerings from Akademie fur Alte Musik Berlin, Tafelmusik, Jordi Savall and not to mention the recent Concerto Italiano recording.

 

[PSmith08]

I find Gramophone to be a good starting-off point, but neither Gramophone nor Penguin match my tastes precisely. I would hope that is a universal condition for lovers of classical music, broadly defined.

I suppose my biggest gripe is the bias toward British conductors. Some are quite great, but others (e.g., Rattle) are somewhat overrated. However, for the most part, they give good run-of-the-mill recommendations.

The fun part is going beyond those recommendations.

 

[Shosta]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSmith08 The fun part is going beyond those recommendations.

I would like to add: The fun part is going against those recommendations.... without doubts

 

[mbhaub]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunnyears mbhaub, What did you think of MTT's recording of the 9th?

Sorry, I can't answer this: I don't own any of these -- yet. The last thing I need is another Mahler set. But, I have heard many of the performances on broadcasts on the local classical station. Not the 9th. Having read many comments from so many of you about these performances, I guess I need to look into them now that I'm buying so many SACDs. I hope the 7th is better than some comments make it out to be. I really like MTTs earlier Mahler work (the LSO 7th, 3rd and SFO Klagende Lied especially). I recall be thrilled with the broadcast of the 2nd, and am disappointed to hear that so many find the sound inadequate.

 

[DarkAngel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunnyears I wonder if the Penguin is still recommending Britten's recording of the Brandenburgs? I could never understand that choice either. Gramophon's online List of Recommended Recordings recommends Harnoncourt which is an okay if uninspiring recommendation, especially with the offerings from Akademie fur Alte Musik Berlin, Tafelmusik, Jordi Savall and not to mention the recent Concerto Italiano recording.

Bunny keep wallet/purse open....
Another must have Brandenburg has just been released!
Alessandrini/Naive