[GhostLoveScore]

What I would like to know is, at let's say - 50mW, does the Vali 2 and Asgard 2 sound the same?

 

[Me x3]

  What I would like to know is, at let's say - 50mW, does the Vali 2 and Asgard 2 sound the same?

They sound close, but if you are very critical, you could find differences.
You might find that Vali 2 is a little bit more relaxed and rounded.
Keep in mind that comparing amplifiers is not like comparing headphones where differences are very important, differences among quality amplifiers are very subtle.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Power and volume are tied.
You can not add more without raising the volume
More power = Higher Volume

This is not string theory, you need 1,6mW to make the K701 sound at 90dB
Making the math, simple math, you get that 100mW is more than you'll ever need for normal listening levels + dynamic peaks + some extra room, as they are enough to make the K701 sound at 108dB which is very loud and not healthy anyway.

You might like the K701 with a 5000mW amplifier, but power has nothing to do with the performance. Unless you raise the volume to extreme levels, the amplifier will only provide the power needed, which is normally ranging from 0.5mW going up to 25mW when peaks hit (for normal listening levels).

AKG says you shouldn't use them with more than 200mW because they'll break, not folks who don't like the headphone.
And I'm not one of those who don't like the headphone. Even when I own the HD800, the Tesla T1, and the HD700, I keep one K702.
From a technical point of view, I think the K702 has the best price/performance ratio among quality headphones in the market today. So, yeah...
Far from being one of those who don't like the headphone.

Many people don't like the headphone because it's light in the bass for modern compressed recordings and because it's slightly nasal sounding, and this is not a power issue, it's a tuning that you can clearly see in frequency response charts. More so, you can see it in many other AKGs, so that's their target. You can use coloured amplifiers to tweak this character, or EQ or enjoy it as it is. I have no problem with the forward presentation as it's contrasting with most other quality headphones today which have necessed upper mids (DT880/HD700/HD800)

You would almost think that I'm the only person who feels this way. The fact is that the k701 came out a long time ago. It's days of being in the limelight are long gone here. Go back and read some threads, maybe starting around 08. These are not my opinions but much of the community as a whole. Most end-up under amping the k701s just due to the fact that they are hard to drive. There are 1000s of pages to read about the concept here.

Also I'm not saying that they are not a totally enjoyable headphone even under powered. And yes, your right, they have a color which some don't get. There is a small mid spike and they have a cupped hand reverb color in a way. Much of this can start to be to understood after getting used to them. I agree they are a tone that is both not for everyone or every genre of music.

In many ways they are a great buy for folks who don't have good headphones. They work for gamers and movie watchers. They can do many more genres with the right amp though.



Many still think they are hard to drive and the stacks of posts will conferm my ideas. It's not something that your going to add up with facts and not a concept that simply works itself out on paper. They say reference headphones but I think very few would say they are. Just an example of manufacture writting for your logbooks.

 

[Me x3]

You would almost think that I'm the only person who feels this way. The fact is that the k701 came out a long time ago. It's days of being in the limelight are long gone here. Go back and read some threads, maybe starting around 08. These are not my opinions but much of the community as a whole. Most end-up under amping the k701s just due to the fact that they are hard to drive. There are 1000s of pages to read about the concept here.

Also I'm not saying that they are not a totally enjoyable headphone even under powered. And yes, your right, they have a color which some don't get. There is a small mid spike and they have a cupped hand reverb color in a way. Much of this can start to be to understood after getting used to them. I agree they are a tone that is both not for everyone or every genre of music.

In many ways they are a great buy for folks who don't have good headphones. They work for gamers and movie watchers. They can do many more genres wifh the right amp though.


Many still think they are hard to drive and the stacks of posts will conferm my ideas. It's not something that your going to add up with facts and not a concept that simply works itself out on paper. They say reference headphones but I think very few would say they are. Just an example of manufacture writting for your logbooks.

 
K701 are hard to drive, harder than HD600/HD650/HD800/DT880(250) and that's fact too.
The good question is how hard... And that's why measuring things is useful. So we don't have to believe the same people stating that burn in should be done with 24/192 files to improve the burn in effect!! The vast majority of people here don't have a technical formation. Not to say their opinions are useless, far from that, but they can get confused more easily when it comes to technical concepts like power. They might plug the K701 into a 5000mW amplifier, like the result more than when pluggerd into a 500mW amplifier and claim K701 need 5000mW, and the fact is both amplifiers are pushing 50mW into the K701 when loud. And most of the times, these people don't know what power means.
 
When tubes comes into play, things become even more tricky because tube amplifiers can sound all over the place, from warm to neutral to bright, and you can have very clean ones and also highly distorted ones, so there's less of a reference next to SS amplifiers. That's why most of the times, I prefer to compare headphones used with SS amplifiers. Then you can tweak the sound a bit to your liking with a tube amplifier and that's great because enjoying the music is the main goal here and some people prefer the sound of tube amplifiers for different reasons.
 
You can also read these kind of under-amping comments with regards to most Audeze headphones and they are all quite easy to drive. When people don't like something they tend to search for an answer and the burden of proof is not always a requirement, and that's the problem.
 
I always preferred K702 over K701 because it has slightly better bass to my ears and innerfidelity measurements seem to confirm this, anyway both are top class reference headphones in my view, and you can see them in audiophile recording studios as mixing headphones next to the top flight HD800.
 
You can say, I have this idea, and other people have the same idea, so that's a confirmation of the idea being correct. You are free to think that way, because we are all free.
But you know that's not a confirmation really. In the past plenty of people thought the Earth was plane and don't asked for real confirmation, they were all wrong. Same would apply to the Earth in the center of the Universe and so on...
 
You might like K701 plugged into WA5 more than plugged into Magni 2, and that's fine. But it's not because of power.
It's better to have no answer than having the wrong answer, because having the wrong answer will make you stop looking for the right one.

 

[Redcarmoose]

K701 are hard to drive, harder than HD600/HD650/HD800/DT880(250) and that's fact too.
The good question is how hard... And that's why measuring things is useful. So we don't have to believe the same people stating that burn in should be done with 24/192 files to improve the burn in effect!! The vast majority of people here don't have a technical formation. Not to say their opinions are useless, far from that, but they can get confused more easily when it comes to technical concepts like power. They might plug the K701 into a 5000mW amplifier, like the result more than when pluggerd into a 500mW amplifier and claim K701 need 5000mW, and the fact is both amplifiers are pushing 50mW into the K701 when loud. And most of the times, these people don't know what power means.

When tubes comes into play, things become even more tricky because tube amplifiers can sound all over the place, from warm to neutral to bright, and you can have very clean ones and also highly distorted ones, so there's less of a reference next to SS amplifiers. That's why most of the times, I prefer to compare headphones used with SS amplifiers. Then you can tweak the sound a bit to your liking with a tube amplifier and that's great because enjoying the music is the main goal here and some people prefer the sound of tube amplifiers for different reasons.

You can also read these kind of under-amping comments with regards to most Audeze headphones and they are all quite easy to drive. When people don't like something they tend to search for an answer and the burden of proof is not always a requirement, and that's the problem.

I always preferred K702 over K701 because it has slightly better bass to my ears and innerfidelity measurements seem to confirm this, anyway both are top class reference headphones in my view, and you can see them in audiophile recording studios as mixing headphones next to the top flight HD800.

You can say, I have this idea, and other people have the same idea, so that's a confirmation of the idea being correct. You are free to think that way, because we are all free.
But you know that's not a confirmation really. In the past plenty of people thought the Earth was plane and don't asked for real confirmation, they were all wrong. Same would apply to the Earth in the center of the Universe and so on...

You might like K701 plugged into WA5 more than plugged into Magni 2, and that's fine. But it's not because of power.
It's better to have no answer than having the wrong answer, because having the wrong answer will make you stop looking for the right one.

I really don't think they are used as reference headphones in recording studios. You yourself said or eluded to them not being flat.

Again it's a manufacture putting the name reference on a product to make it sell. Recording studios use a buch of monitors and headphones. Simply if someone used the k701 to mix an album it would result in being too bass heavy as the listener would add bass in the mix to make up what the headphone is not doing. So calling them reference is a little of a joke and most would not argue.

But your right even if a group of people on the forums had the wrong ideas that does not make them right. Still I tend to believe the group here rather than what the headphone makers write. I then combine what I read with my own listening tests and come up with ideas I trust.


I do listen to them with a JDS Labs c421 and it sounds enjoyable. Still I'm at full volume and it's not loud. They can be used that way but end up being limited as to what music they do well.

I can't tell you about the sound with the Magni, so I don't know. Before I purchased my DACMagic Plus a review I read said it worked really well with the k701. I knew it would not be powerful enough. I actually laughed and thought the reviewer could have used many other headphones. But that's how audio is, you should take everything you read with a grain of salt.

 

[Me x3]

I really don't think they are used as reference headphones in recording studios. You yourself said or eluded to them not being flat.

Again it's a manufacture putting the name reference on a product to make it sell. Recording studios use a buch of monitors and headphones. Simply if someone used the k701 to mix an album it would result in being too bass heavy as the listener would add bass in the mix to make up what the headphone is not doing. So calling them reference is a little of a joke and most would not argue.

But your right even if a group of people on the forums had the wrong ideas that does not make them right. Still I tend to believe the group here rather than what the headphone makers write. I then combine what I read with my own listening tests and come up with ideas I trust.


I do listen to them with a JDS Labs c421 and it sounds enjoyable. Still I'm at full volume and it's not loud. They can be used that way but end up being limited as to what music they do well.

I can't tell you about the sound with the Magni, so I don't know. Before I purchased my DACMagic Plus a review I read said it worked really well with the k701. I knew it would not be powerful enough. I actually laughed and thought the reviewer could have used many other headphones. But that's how audio is, you should take everything you read with a grain of salt.

 
Have a look, this is among the finest audiophile labels. They use K702 and HD800 along with 25k usd Grimm Audio speakers.
http://www.soundliaison.com/studio-showcase-series/38-thousand-shades-of-blue
(equipment at the bottom)
 
Frequency response might not be 100% perfect, but it's very good anyway. Detail retrieval and instrument separation is top notch.
They can always EQ a bit using top class tools like DMG Equilibrium if they feel the need.
 
I speak mostly for the K702 which is slightly different than K701, but still similar overall.
The bass to me is not recessed, what I've said is that it sounds bass light when paired with poor recordings.
It sounds very well with top class stuff and can sound faster and hit harder than HD800.
 
Other headphones like HD650 and to a much lesser extent the T1, add warmth so they are a much better pick for less than ideal recordings but they can sound overly warm with perfect recordings. In that sense I don't think a recording made using K702 will result too heavy in the bass if it was intended to be played on neutral equippment.
On the other hand if you make a recording intended to be played on car stereos, Fidelios and B&W P7, then using HD600 is a much better idea.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Have a look, this is among the finest audiophile labels. They use K702 and HD800 along with 25k usd Grimm Audio speakers.
http://www.soundliaison.com/studio-showcase-series/38-thousand-shades-of-blue
(equipment at the bottom)

Frequency response might not be 100% perfect, but it's very good anyway. Detail retrieval and instrument separation is top notch.
They can always EQ a bit using top class tools like DMG Equilibrium if they feel the need.

I speak mostly for the K702 which is slightly different than K701, but still similar overall.
The bass to me is not recessed, what I've said is that it sounds bass light when paired with poor recordings.
It sounds very well with top class stuff and can sound faster and hit harder than HD800.

Other headphones like HD650 and to a much lesser extent the T1, add warmth so they are a much better pick for less than ideal recordings but they can sound overly warm with perfect recordings. In that sense I don't think a recording made using K702 will result too heavy in the bass if it was intended to be played on neutral equippment.
On the other hand if you make a recording intended to be played on car stereos, Fidelios and B&W P7, then using HD600 is a much better idea.

The history which inspired the theme of the album very closely parallels the k701 history here at Head Fi.

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

.
Thousand Shades of Blue
Dom Pedro, son of King Alfonso of Portugal, and heir to the throne, fell in love with Inés de Castro, a chambermaid. They became lovers and soul mates.The scandal was too much for the king who consequently ordered the killing of Ines in front of hers and Pedro's infant child. When Alfonso died, Pedro's first act as King was to have Ines' body exhumed from the grave, dressed in royal robes andcarried 50 miles along a candlelit route to Alcobacá where she was crowned as his Queen. He then forced the entire court to swear allegiance to their new queen by kissing the corpse's hand.Ines and Pedro are both buried at the Monastery of Alcobacá, where Pedro had arranged that their two tombs are placed with their feet towards each other, so that on the Day of Judgement, when they raise from the grave, their very first act will be looking into each others eyes.

......only slightly less romantic.

 

[GhostLoveScore]

Well Schiit. Cheapest shipping from Schiit is 80 dollars... And then import taxes and charges on top of it all. That means $250 amp is actually at least $400 amp when it arrives here in Croatia. I hope that people in US realize how lucky you are. Here in Europe you can't get anything. I have to import everything.
 
EDIT: I see that they have Europe warehouse. The prices are bit higher than US prices, but less than ordering from US+shipping+tax

 

[Me x3]

  Well Schiit. Cheapest shipping from Schiit is 80 dollars... And then import taxes and charges on top of it all. That means $250 amp is actually at least $400 amp when it arrives here in Croatia. I hope that people in US realize how lucky you are. Here in Europe you can't get anything. I have to import everything.
 
EDIT: I see that they have Europe warehouse. The prices are bit higher than US prices, but less than ordering from US+shipping+tax

Haha! Well, it would cost you at least $500 here in Argentina ; )

 

[GhostLoveScore]

Are both of these legit? http://schiit.eu.com/ and http://www.schiit-europe.com? It seems that first one has better prices and they ship from UK and the second one from Netherlands with higher prices.

 

[Bleether]

  Are both of these legit? http://schiit.eu.com/ and http://www.schiit-europe.com? It seems that first one has better prices and they ship from UK and the second one from Netherlands with higher prices.

 
From Schiits official US site.
 
http://schiit.com/faq/international

 

[ProtegeManiac]

  Well Schiit. Cheapest shipping from Schiit is 80 dollars... And then import taxes and charges on top of it all. That means $250 amp is actually at least $400 amp when it arrives here in Croatia. I hope that people in US realize how lucky you are. Here in Europe you can't get anything. I have to import everything.
 
EDIT: I see that they have Europe warehouse. The prices are bit higher than US prices, but less than ordering from US+shipping+tax

 
If you're going to end up paying that much you might as well get the Meier Jazz from Germany. List prices include shipping.
http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/

 

[GhostLoveScore]

I found out that some albums just don't sound good on the K701. Some have too much treble, some too little bass. I listen mostly to rock and metal. They sound amazing with rock: Led Zeppelin, Jefferson Airplane, Steppenwolf, The Beatles, Creedence clearwater revival... About the metal - they sound great too with all Amon Amarth albums, Wintersun sound good too, Children of Bodom depends on the album, Nightwish sound great except Oceanborn which is shame since it's one of my favorite albums. I have to admit that there is a lack of bass on some songs. I would like low end to be a bit stronger.
 
Basically the sound depends on album and how it's mixed (or mastered? I really don't know the difference).
I'll be probably ordering the amp this weekend and when it arrived I'll write my final opinion of the headphones+amp.
 
BTW, I am using integrated sound card on my motherboard Asrock Z97 Extreme4. How much is worth getting a good amp if I use integrated sound card?

 

[Me x3]

  I found out that some albums just don't sound good on the K701. Some have too much treble, some too little bass. I listen mostly to rock and metal. They sound amazing with rock: Led Zeppelin, Jefferson Airplane, Steppenwolf, The Beatles, Creedence clearwater revival... About the metal - they sound great too with all Amon Amarth albums, Wintersun sound good too, Children of Bodom depends on the album, Nightwish sound great except Oceanborn which is shame since it's one of my favorite albums. I have to admit that there is a lack of bass on some songs. I would like low end to be a bit stronger.
 
Basically the sound depends on album and how it's mixed (or mastered? I really don't know the difference).
I'll be probably ordering the amp this weekend and when it arrived I'll write my final opinion of the headphones+amp.

Yeah...
It's the same with HD800 and even with the Tesla T1
Quality headphones shine with quality recordings and most of the times they aren't even enjoyable with the rest of the recordings.
An amp won't change that.
 
HD650 works much better for less than perfect recordings

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GhostLoveScore /img/forum/go_quote.gif

I found out that some albums just don't sound good on the K701. Some have too much treble, some too little bass.

 

It's the K701 that has too much treble and too little bass, not so much what you're listening to. It has a spike at around 8000hz to 9000hz and then rolls off the bass earlier - at around 65hz it's already on its way below where 1000hz is at, which is the reference point for how much in excess or how much any system lacks anywhere else across the freq range.

 

I never found that to be a problem because on an amp that has good damping factor and low distortion+noise you can use the EQ a bit more than just hooking it up directly to a phone or whatever, so I can boost the bass below 60hz. The cut at the treble will not cause distortion save for any flaw in whatever EQ you're using, but software EQs nowadays typically do not have such a problem.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by GhostLoveScore /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

I listen mostly to rock and metal. They sound amazing with rock: Led Zeppelin, Jefferson Airplane, Steppenwolf, The Beatles, Creedence clearwater revival... About the metal - they sound great too with all Amon Amarth albums, Wintersun sound good too, Children of Bodom depends on the album, Nightwish sound great except Oceanborn which is shame since it's one of my favorite albums. I have to admit that there is a lack of bass on some songs. I would like low end to be a bit stronger.

 

Basically the sound depends on album and how it's mixed (or mastered? I really don't know the difference).

I'll be probably ordering the amp this weekend and when it arrived I'll write my final opinion of the headphones+amp.

 

While mastering is important the thing here is that your most obvious problem is the K701's response. But since you already have that, and you can't exactly get copies of your music in different mastering quality unlike older classic rock albums (for which you have to look out for bad mastering on some reissues), you only have two options. Either sell the K701 and get an entirely different headphone that has less treble and more bass (like the HD650), or get a more powerful amp so you can use EQ to boost the bass as well as a cut on the treble peak (the amp's power and damping factor however only really matter more for the bass boost). Note that the amp isn't going to be magical in the sense that you'll never get distortion, it just raises the threshold for boosts in the lower registers before you get distortion on the driver.