Got a turntable, would like to know what it's worth?
Nov 10, 2008 at 2:38 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 17

Kn0x

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Hi!

So, my uncle got rid of a lot of his gear today and he gave me his JVC QL-Y3F deck. It's got a grado GT cartrige on it and the needle has been replaced last year.

I was wondering if any of it is considered as ''good''. I am going to get a SL1200 or SL1500 depending on the deal I get in about a month or two, and I was wondering if I'd see a huge improvement?

Can't seem to find any info on the cartrige... Anyone knows about this stuff?

Thanks a lot!
 
Nov 10, 2008 at 10:44 AM Post #2 of 17

Lazarus Short

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Post photos or describe, pls.
 
Nov 10, 2008 at 5:17 PM Post #4 of 17

memepool

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Kn0x /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Hi!

So, my uncle got rid of a lot of his gear today and he gave me his JVC QL-Y3F deck. It's got a grado GT cartrige on it and the needle has been replaced last year.

I was wondering if any of it is considered as ''good''. I am going to get a SL1200 or SL1500 depending on the deal I get in about a month or two, and I was wondering if I'd see a huge improvement?



It's at least as good as either a SL1200/1500 in stock but I'm not sure if it could be upgraded as easily.

If you were planning on using the Technics as it comes and not replacing the tonearm then I'd stick with the JVC and just buy a nicer cart. The Grado is probably pretty respectable but I'm sure you could do better with a Moving Coil cart like the ATOC9.
 
Nov 10, 2008 at 7:02 PM Post #5 of 17

Kn0x

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Well, I think i'm going to stick to the table for a while if it's good 'cauz the Technics is a little expensive for my budget right now...

If it's possible to get a cartrige that I will be able to use on the Technics (wich I will absolutely buy in a couple of months), I would upgrade the cartrige now, and the table later.

Is that possible?

Sorry, i'm a real noob with analog stuff
darthsmile.gif
.

The only other thing i'm wondering is if the pitch control is acurate on my JVC?
 
Nov 10, 2008 at 7:30 PM Post #6 of 17

memepool

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Kn0x /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Well, I think i'm going to stick to the table for a while if it's good 'cauz the Technics is a little expensive for my budget right now...


I don't think it's worth your buying a Technics SL1200 unless you are going to upgrade the tonearm on it to at least a Rega RB250 which means spending 750USD altogether.

Your JVC is as good as an off the shelf Technics SL1200 that you would buy new today so it's not really worth spending any money on a new deck the same standard as what you have. You'll need basically double the budget to get a worthwhile upgrade.

You would get more of an upgrade by spending this 400USD on a better cart but that's about the max it's probably worth spending on one for the JVC anyway.

If I were you I'd probably just spend the money on records instead.
 
Nov 10, 2008 at 11:59 PM Post #7 of 17

Kn0x

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Well, I like the idea of keeping the table for a while. Knowing myself tough, if I hear the difference between now and the cartrige upgrade, i'll want to upgrade later and pay whatever it may take without getting anything too overpriced.

So, as a cartrige, what do you propose around 100-150 USD for now that could be an upgrade from my grado? I ordered a bunch of brand new vinyls that should come in this week, and well, as a first upgrade, i'd like to get a ''cheap but good'' cartrige.

You mentionned the ATOC9, how good is it, and how much should I pay for it witout getting ripped off?

Thanks a lot, help is much apreciated in this totally new world to me!
 
Nov 11, 2008 at 1:57 AM Post #8 of 17

searchenabler

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Kn0x /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Well, I like the idea of keeping the table for a while. Knowing myself tough, if I hear the difference between now and the cartrige upgrade, i'll want to upgrade later and pay whatever it may take without getting anything too overpriced.

So, as a cartrige, what do you propose around 100-150 USD for now that could be an upgrade from my grado? I ordered a bunch of brand new vinyls that should come in this week, and well, as a first upgrade, i'd like to get a ''cheap but good'' cartrige.

You mentionned the ATOC9, how good is it, and how much should I pay for it witout getting ripped off?

Thanks a lot, help is much apreciated in this totally new world to me!



The Denon DL-110 is as fine a cartridge as one can ask for at any price, it seems. It's stylus quality is superior to virtually anything remotely around the same price - and it has a very flat mid-range, with a slightly decreasing treble at upper end of range, which makes most recordings sound more natural/smooth. This is in contrast to most cartrdiges which actually appear to have a rising top end; which may provide a sense of false added treble detail, but also makes more recordings sound a bit shrill/harsh on most speakers. It also has superbly low distortion. I can provide my measurements if you want to see them. Note that this is still hand made and QCed in Japan by Denon. A very rare bargain.

I use the DL-110 on my turntable in preference to the highly regarded, nearly $1k Clearaudio Wood Virtuosso. I simply could not find anything that made the Virtuosso actually superior in any significant way when compared to the superb Denon DL-110. The DL-110 is THAT good. If you have speakers/room acoustics of high enough grade, the DL-110 can make fine vinyl recordings sound like real life in every way. The DL-110 will NOT limit your turn table or arm, regardless of their cost/quality. It's too bad the psychological effect of the DL-110 being such low cost makes it seem less good than it really is; but that's human nature for you...

-Chris
 
Nov 11, 2008 at 2:12 AM Post #9 of 17

Kn0x

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That's really interesting!

And it's a little under 150USD on ebay... Sounds like i'm ordering it next week
atsmile.gif
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I'll be mainly using a Grundig A-903 Amp and my senns HD-580. But I also have a good rotel amp with hand made here in quebec Ledoux speakers that sounds unbeleivably great so, I hope to hear a difference between that and my Grado Cartrige!
 
Nov 11, 2008 at 10:21 AM Post #10 of 17

searchenabler

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Kn0x /img/forum/go_quote.gif
That's really interesting!

And it's a little under 150USD on ebay... Sounds like i'm ordering it next week
atsmile.gif
.

I'll be mainly using a Grundig A-903 Amp and my senns HD-580. But I also have a good rotel amp with hand made here in quebec Ledoux speakers that sounds unbeleivably great so, I hope to hear a difference between that and my Grado Cartrige!



If you are in USA, there is a seller on eBay right now with a small batch of the DL-110 for BUY IT NOW of $101.99 w/free shipping. When I bought my DL-110, the lowest price anywhere was $130. This is a remarkable deal if they are not fakes. LOL. I just had to say that because I have never seen them priced so low before except in case of rare single units being sold cheap once in a blue moon. But this guy as 10+ units he claims.

BTW, that TT, if in proper working order, including the tone arm, is going to likely be very very good. The arm is likely far better than the likes of what you find on a stock SL-1200 or variant. I wish I was more familar with the electronic dynamic arm on this Yamaha. Some of the top of the line Denon tables from the 80's like the DP-59 with the top of the line Denon dynamic arms, had extremely sophisticated arms that were of the 1st class of fidelity; implementing active CPU controlled resonance and tracking corrections by utilizing motion sensors and accelerometer in the tone arm along with active feedback transducer that was used to invert and cancel the error(s). Again, I have no idea if the Yamaha was of the same level of sophistication/capability. The Yamaha active arm may only have dynamic tracking error correction, which is still an great feature that makes the unit a perfect tracker even on horrible warps and severe modulated low frequency grooves.

-Chris
 
Nov 11, 2008 at 11:44 AM Post #11 of 17

memepool

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Quote:

Originally Posted by searchenabler /img/forum/go_quote.gif
BTW, that TT, if in proper working order, including the tone arm, is going to likely be very very good. The arm is likely far better than the likes of what you find on a stock SL-1200 or variant. I wish I was more familar with the electronic dynamic arm on this Yamaha. Some of the top of the line Denon tables from the 80's like the DP-59 with the top of the line Denon dynamic arms, had extremely sophisticated arms that were of the 1st class of fidelity; implementing active CPU controlled resonance and tracking corrections by utilizing motion sensors and accelerometer in the tone arm along with active feedback transducer that was used to invert and cancel the error(s). Again, I have no idea if the Yamaha was of the same level of sophistication/capability. The Yamaha active arm may only have dynamic tracking error correction, which is still an great feature that makes the unit a perfect tracker even on horrible warps and severe modulated low frequency grooves.


For this reason I think perhaps a low compliance MC like the Denon DL-110 is perhaps not such a good idea. Anecdotal evidence from other JVC QL-Y3F owners bears this out and a more recent medium compliance cart like one of the Ortofon 2Ms seems to be the best bet.

I have had several Sony Biotracer turntables over the years which have this kind of computer controlled tonearm and yes they are very smooth operators and a triumph of engineering but they don't really come out head and shoulders over a conventional well designed arm of the period in the sonic stakes, never mind a more recent arm like the Rega RB250.

Like with tape decks this just goes to prove that in analogue reproduction, clever electronics are no substitute for solid mechanical engineering. Sony, and all the Japanese majors could of course do both to the nth degree, but unfortunately at the time these were made electronics like this were often used as a way to cut corners being cheaper to mass produce once the R&D was written off.

For 150 USD I would go for an Ortofon 2M Red cartridge which will give you a state of the art modern MM cart which should work more sympathetically with the tonearm.

BTW manual is here http://www.vinylengine.com/library/jvc/ql-y3f.shtml
 
Nov 11, 2008 at 1:46 PM Post #12 of 17

searchenabler

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Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif
For this reason I think perhaps a low compliance MC like the Denon DL-110 is perhaps not such a good idea. Anecdotal evidence from other JVC QL-Y3F owners bears this out and a more recent medium compliance cart like one of the Ortofon 2Ms seems to be the best bet.

I have had several Sony Biotracer turntables over the years which have this kind of computer controlled tonearm and yes they are very smooth operators and a triumph of engineering but they don't really come out head and shoulders over a conventional well designed arm of the period in the sonic stakes, never mind a more recent arm like the Rega RB250.

Like with tape decks this just goes to prove that in analogue reproduction, clever electronics are no substitute for solid mechanical engineering. Sony, and all the Japanese majors could of course do both to the nth degree, but unfortunately at the time these were made electronics like this were often used as a way to cut corners being cheaper to mass produce once the R&D was written off.

For 150 USD I would go for an Ortofon 2M Red cartridge which will give you a state of the art modern MM cart which should work more sympathetically with the tonearm.

BTW manual is here JVC QL-Y3F | Manual Free Download, Turntable owners,service,schematics,brochure | Vinyl Engine



I can't speak for the other tables, really only for the Denon DP-59, which my friend has. It cut no corners that I can tell, and he actually used a DL-110 on it as well. It may be on par easily with my Clearaudio arm, I dare say. I would love to have this model Denon myself, if only to measure/analyze. I am quite fixated on quantifying every part of audio equipment.....
smily_headphones1.gif


That's why I did pose the question of if the Yamaha arm pulled off the performance of the flagship Denon example. I have no idea of the Yamaha's capabilities. It may very well be a mere marketing gimmick on the Yamaha, but it clearly appears to be a superbly engineered solution on the Denon model I specified. Denon also had an extremely high cost table using this type of arm; it was specifically designed/targeted for professional use; broadcasting, archiving, etc.. It was the DP-100M. It was actually rather ugly; using plain industrial style metal construction with industrial type paint, though later on, they did start providing some fancy looking hardwood accessory sides for it for those that insisted upon use in home applications; much like the add on wood based from KAB for the SL1200.

-Chris
 
Nov 12, 2008 at 1:28 AM Post #13 of 17

Kn0x

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All the auto functions broke down on the table this morning. Exept the speed control. It still works fine manually so it's no big deal for now. I checked in the service manual (thanks for that!) and it seems that the problem is a chip itself. Kind of a problem when the TT is amlost 30 years old lol... (and it worked on and off since the last couple of days, so i'm not suprised by the outcome).

So i'll be switching table in about 2 months or so. Question is, should I go with the ortophon mm or the denon mc? I'm a little lost in all that new stuff, but If I understood, the ortophon would be more suitable for the tonearm I actually have on this table. Question is, on an sl1200 (or any other good-cheap tt) which oune would be best, and well, if it's not too complicated, how to know what cartridge is more suitable for one or another tonearm?

Thanks a lot to all of you, you guys really are helping me out!
 
Nov 12, 2008 at 5:43 PM Post #14 of 17

memepool

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Kn0x /img/forum/go_quote.gif
All the auto functions broke down on the table this morning. Exept the speed control. It still works fine manually so it's no big deal for now. I checked in the service manual (thanks for that!) and it seems that the problem is a chip itself. Kind of a problem when the TT is amlost 30 years old lol... (and it worked on and off since the last couple of days, so i'm not suprised by the outcome).


So long as the manual functions work and the arm is not malfunctioning then I'd say this is still as good or better than a stock SL1200 anyway, which is entirely manual BTW.

Failing ICs is a problem with vintage direct drives. But IC's are usually either working or not so the intermittent character points more to wiring or cap issues I'd say. Have you given the innards a going over with an air duster? checked the circuits integrity?

This is a classic deck and they just don't make turntables like this anymore so it's worth hanging onto and repairing if possible. Decks you buy today are almost completely manual minimalist beltdrives so having a usable highend Japanese vintage direct drive is an increasingly sought-after item.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kn0x /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Question is, should I go with the ortophon mm or the denon mc? I'm a little lost in all that new stuff, but If I understood, the ortophon would be more suitable for the tonearm I actually have on this table. Question is, on an sl1200 (or any other good-cheap tt) which oune would be best, and well, if it's not too complicated, how to know what cartridge is more suitable for one or another tonearm?


Maybe just stick with your Grado for now and see how the situation develops. More on cart / arm matching and direct drives here http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/ttcartridge.html
 
Nov 13, 2008 at 11:45 PM Post #15 of 17

Kn0x

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Well, after a lot of reading (thanks to you!!) I finally am a little less in a black hole.

As for sticking to the grado, well... Right now, the table sounds a little muffled to me... Any advice about that?
 

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