[plonter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sherwood /img/forum/go_quote.gif I didn't seem to notice anyone mentioning a transport here, which is a sorely needed word. In a digital system, whichever device turns your digital bits into analog pulses is the Source. A soundcard is only a source if it is performing a Digital to Analog conversion, i.e. you're using the analog outputs. If it's outputting a digital signal it is called a transport. A cd player can also be a transport, if it puts out a digital signal into an external DAC. Or it can be a source if it puts out an analog signal. If you use a CD player, you put CDs in it (duh). Those CD's are a host for media. If you use a computer, the computer is the host for media, in the form of sound files (like mp3, flac, wav, etc.). Every digital system has these three parts: Media Transport Source An ipod loaded with files does all four tasks. A computer with files can be a host for media, if it outputs a USB signal, of a host for media and a Transport, if it outputs a S/PDIF (optical, coaxial, AES/EBU) signal. Personally, I like using three separate devices for the three parts. The computer outputs USB to an external transport, which outputs optical to an external DAC. There are solutions that combine 2 or 3 of these functions together, though, and many are quite good. The micro DAC has a mini usb input, which is what you should use in your case. You'll get great sound, probably better than you could get from any CD player for the money, and definitely better than your ipod.

thanks for the explanation. now i know exactly what is the difference between a source and a transport. i dont know why i hesitated until now to go for a dac combo. i always knew that this is the right track to get the best sound.
is there a difference between using the usb port and using the optical and coaxial outputs? will the soundcard interfere if i will use the optical and coax outputs?

 

[plonter]

i also can play cds in my computer and use it as a cd player right...?
it will be the same like listen to different format files.(mp3 etc.)?

 

[krisjan]

blue_lammer - first of all calm down and take a deep breath - i'm not debunking pro soundcards...check the replies below...
Quote:

Originally Posted by blue_lammer /img/forum/go_quote.gif How is a DAC any better. It utilizes everything except drivers.

The Micro DAC also utilizes drivers - all devices interfacing with the computer through usb need drivers. And both the pro soundcard and the micro has a DAC on them - they might use different ones, but they both have DACs - the pro soundcard has some additional goodies such as ADC (analogue to digital converter) for the microphone inputs etc.

Quote:

Nothing you mentioned has any hard based facts in influencing sound quality in soundcards. If the definition of a generalized device are "inputs and latency" then so is a DAC - how is that significant?

The "definition" of a generalised device as i refer to it here, is that it is a device that does more than one thing - the pro soundcard for instance could do all of the following: 1> DAC that outputs sound to speakers/headphones. 2> ADC that converts signal from the microphone to digital information. 3> MIDI interface that accepts midi device data through standard midi ports,...
The micro has no inputs, no midi interface, it only has a DAC (and amp)...

Quote:

Implementation of drivers causing latency? How is a DAC any better? How do audiophile designed card differ from your statement on "focusing on the quality output signal" ?

Again - both the micro and a pro soundcard has a DAC, but the focus of the devices do differ - of course it is possible that a pro soundcard could be just as good or even better than something like the micro, but my bet is that you would have to spend big $$'s to get something like that because of all the other extras that the soundcard contains. You see most people buying a micro is only going to listen to music through it, not produce music - latency is hardly an issue. If you produce music you might have 20 softsynths running and various tracks of audio samples - so to have realtime playback in that situation latency becomes an issue - a pro soundcard will try to address that need.
Quote:

Will optical out or usb cause less latency - Usb Jitter?

Read the link to the thread on usb cables i posted earlier - latency and jitter is not the same
Quote:

"then on top of that/as an aside they must provide decent sound output quality via the dac to the speakers/headphones" That's what a DAC does as well.

exactly
Quote:

I fail to see how any of your arguments help support DAC's as a better platform for producing sound. I can see if the design implantation of the circuits are better than yes. If noise quality then yes. Please help me, perhaps I have not understood your arguments.

Again - both the soundcard and the "dac" has a DAC on them. My argument is this - if one man will clean your entire house for the same price as another man who will only clean your carpets only, but the man that cleans the carpets only is a specialist in that area, who do you expect will do a better job at cleaning the carpets? of course it is not an absolute fact that the specialist will do a better job, but it is 90% for sure...at the same price that is. So i am arguing a pro soundcard is like the guy who's going to clean your entire house and the micro is only going to clean your carpets - it is focussed on a single task...hope this helps you to understand

 

[blue_lammer]

I apologize about the tone, I got a little excited plus I had to leave for an exam. You do make some good points. My concerns regarding the Latency and Jitter are two different things, I should have phrased that better. I'll just skip that because it's not really that important.

I think my argument is to argue that at the same price point under 300 dollars or so a soundcard gives better value than a DAC. I've recently got to hear the ZERO DAC modded, Xonar, AV710 and my friends 0404. I got to listen to them off my AD700 as my K701s haven't come yet. From my auditions while the ZERO is a great unit it costs more and does less. The Xonar and the 0404 left an overall better impression, plus there are surround outputs if you need them.

I think the reasons why I think the DAC costs more for the same sound quality is the same reasons you mentioned, specialization. Specialization comes at a price. Although Chinese made models are both cheap and sound great for the price. It costs money to build units at smaller quantities and added to that you have to add a case and a transformer.

But, I definitely think once you hit higher pricepoints of more than 250 dollars there is no competition. There are no cards, even specialized that can compete with an externally built unit. I think under that however there are great products which are better value.

I will have to admit I am not an electronics expert and I could definitely be wrong about this. I have not heard all the DACs and soundcards I would like to make a fair comparison. I base a lot of this off of speculation and analysis. I hope that clarifies my position and once again sorry I didn't mean for my post to sound so rude. Phew, that was really long, I think this will be my last post on this topic since after reviewing what I said I think I should listen to more before I say anything else.

/end

 

[karthur]

I might get a Musical Fidelity V-Dac to try out..seems good for the price. But if it aint any better than my Audiotrak/Onkyo then I'll put it up for sale here!

 

[Elephas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sherwood /img/forum/go_quote.gif I didn't seem to notice anyone mentioning a transport here, which is a sorely needed word.

You hurt my feelings!

 

[krisjan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue_lammer /img/forum/go_quote.gif I apologize about the tone, I got a little excited plus I had to leave for an exam. You do make some good points. My concerns regarding the Latency and Jitter are two different things, I should have phrased that better. I'll just skip that because it's not really that important. I think my argument is to argue that at the same price point under 300 dollars or so a soundcard gives better value than a DAC. I've recently got to hear the ZERO DAC modded, Xonar, AV710 and my friends 0404. I got to listen to them off my AD700 as my K701s haven't come yet. From my auditions while the ZERO is a great unit it costs more and does less. The Xonar and the 0404 left an overall better impression, plus there are surround outputs if you need them. I think the reasons why I think the DAC costs more for the same sound quality is the same reasons you mentioned, specialization. Specialization comes at a price. Although Chinese made models are both cheap and sound great for the price. It costs money to build units at smaller quantities and added to that you have to add a case and a transformer. But, I definitely think once you hit higher pricepoints of more than 250 dollars there is no competition. There are no cards, even specialized that can compete with an externally built unit. I think under that however there are great products which are better value. I will have to admit I am not an electronics expert and I could definitely be wrong about this. I have not heard all the DACs and soundcards I would like to make a fair comparison. I base a lot of this off of speculation and analysis. I hope that clarifies my position and once again sorry I didn't mean for my post to sound so rude. Phew, that was really long, I think this will be my last post on this topic since after reviewing what I said I think I should listen to more before I say anything else. /end

don't worry about the tone - I try not to take offence too easily...
Re DACs vs soundcards - i think that you just need to be clear on exactly what you are comparin though:
Take the ZERO DAC for example - it has a built in amp as far as I recall, with a pretty standard (not so great) opamp, which can be rolled (so replaced with a better alternative). And all of the soundcards also come with their own little headphone amp built-in - this would be the weakest link in an all-in-one soundcard. Possibly, the amp section could have a greater influence on the sound quality than the DAC - I know the EMU has a pretty decent headphone amp built in, but i don't know about the others - it could outperform the ZERO on that front - I don't know, haven't heard a ZERO...
Something like the headroom micro however will definitely have a much better amp than all the soundcards mentioned - so in truth to compare the DACs between the micro and the soundcards, you'd have to run the soundcard line output through the micro and compare it to running the micro in usb mode, then you get different sources, but the same amp.

 

[BruteFM]

Here's a vote for good sound card, because that's all I have experience with.

I recently ditched my Audigy 2 for a HT Omega Claro+, which I run to my PIMETA and out to my DT880. The only time I get the slightest hint of noise is when I crank both the sound card and the amp to max volume, and it's a quiet, high-pitched hum from USB devices. This won't ever be a problem for me, though, because even half volume on the amp is uncomfortably loud.

 

[fzman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue_lammer /img/forum/go_quote.gif I agree with karthur, I have no problems with hissing on my setup. Although I don't have such a good amp compared to apartN, I only have hiss when I crank my amp all the way up. I'm running it using radioshack cables atm Actually I am quite happy I found a site that sells the Prodigy Advanced Deluxe edition for 117 canadian or 94 american!!!! It's sold on some Korean marketplace by the same guy on eBay except at a much lower price. You can find it here I originally was going to buy the one from floridaco but that is only a standard edition and for essentially 15 dollars more you get better far better capacitors and opamps (although cheaply upgradable). From what others say the HD2 standard is amazing in inself, the advance should be far better. I wouldn't necessarily buy into this Computer parts = bad and external sound = better. Many others have mentioned that for the same price you don't have to build a case or power transformers which in the end give you better bang for the buck. Especially when they design the card to specifically block noise. Like they mention here:

i've got both the us and korean versions of this card -- both manu in korea, btw.

the korean version has a different firmware, and won;t work with the asio drivers that are supplied with the us one. it can be reflashed, but i have not gotten around to doing that yet.

the gyrocom seller on ebay is great -- i got the card in about 4 days (to the US), and he even emailed me a translated korean page with the flashing instructions.

i have not compared the two versions sonically, but they have socketed op amps, so changing them is very easy. the US card sounds very good, as does the korean one.

hope that helps....

mark

 

[NajoBB]

I'm sorry, another DAC noob here, just one question:


I have the best sounding X-Fi (X-Fi Titanium - Fatal1ty Champion Series) that cost less than 200$ and it's all in one solution.

Ultra Micro DAC cost 699$ and it's only a DAC. And that's it. Just a DAC.



Based on some logic Micro should, without any doubt, sound much better than my X-Fi right?

 

[krisjan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NajoBB /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm sorry, another DAC noob here, just one question: I have the best sounding X-Fi (X-Fi Titanium - Fatal1ty Champion Series) that cost less than 200$ and it's all in one solution. Ultra Micro DAC cost 699$ and it's only a DAC. And that's it. Just a DAC. Based on some logic Micro should, without any doubt, sound much better than my X-Fi right?

well, look at some of the top apogee dacs - it's like anythin else audiophile - price increases exponentially for incremental gains in quality at the top...
k
anyway i didn't realize the ultra micro dac is only a dac? thought it was a combo product such as the bithead...it is entirely possible to pay that much for a dac only though...

 

[moonboy403]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NajoBB /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm sorry, another DAC noob here, just one question: I have the best sounding X-Fi (X-Fi Titanium - Fatal1ty Champion Series) that cost less than 200$ and it's all in one solution. Ultra Micro DAC cost 699$ and it's only a DAC. And that's it. Just a DAC. Based on some logic Micro should, without any doubt, sound much better than my X-Fi right?

I haven't heard either one. One thing I would like to point out is that your headphone has to be able to resolve the details the DAC outputs. So if you have a $1000 DAC and a $100 dollars headphone, chances are, you won't be able to hear much of an improvement even if there's one.

 

[Sherwood]

Spoken like someone who doesn't have a $1000 DAC

 

[moonboy403]

You're right. I don't. I wish I could though!

I drawn up my opinion based on the cheap DACs that I have and tried.

 

[Sherwood]

In my experience, there is and you can hear it even on cheap cans. Whether or not it's the best use of $1000 in your system is much more debatable, though.