Good headphones with ONLY motherboard sound?

[BoomerD]

So, (just in preparation) the DT 880 Pros are rated for 5-35,000 Hz frequency response. At my age and with my hearing damage, odds are, I won't hear most of the higher frequencies...I get that, but when looking at a lot of the budget amps, (<$100) they're 10 or 20-20,000 Hz. Isn't that leaving a LOT of the frequency response "on the table?" Will I even notice the difference?
Even the Schiit Fulla and Magni: Frequency Response: 20Hz-20Khz, +/-0.5db

So far, in the price range, only the Monoprice Liquid Spark (on sale for $85 this weekend) has a wider range. (10-50,000 Hz)

Again...will I even notice the "missing" frequencies?

FWIW, I started studying "Electronics Communications" in the early 70's, had to drop out because walking into a lab with all the test equipment "hurt" my ears. To this day, I can "hear" police radar units. (I literally hear a "click" when one nearby triggers on...a VERY high-pitched whine while I'm in range...then it either clicks off...or fades out. it's NOT a "fig newton of my imaginative," I tested it with a couple of cops I knew who ran traffic radar. (I don't remember what band they were running at the time)

 

[ProtegeManiac]

So, (just in preparation) the DT 880 Pros are rated for 5-35,000 Hz frequency response. At my age and with my hearing damage, odds are, I won't hear most of the higher frequencies...I get that, but when looking at a lot of the budget amps, (<$100) they're 10 or 20-20,000 Hz. Isn't that leaving a LOT of the frequency response "on the table?" Will I even notice the difference?
Even the Schiit Fulla and Magni: Frequency Response: 20Hz-20Khz, +/-0.5db

So far, in the price range, only the Monoprice Liquid Spark (on sale for $85 this weekend) has a wider range. (10-50,000 Hz)

Again...will I even notice the "missing" frequencies?

First problem: nearly all music recordings wouldn't even have anything below 20hz (heck most barely have anything below 50hz, that's how some people get away with just 6in drivers in a standmount enclosure). So no, you're not gonna miss anything that wasn't even there, much less what you can't even hear. Being able to hear only around 20hz to 20,000hz+ is not age-dependent, it's what's natural to humans. If you or any human can hear far beyond 20,000hz, they'll know when I've got treats in my hand.

Which is kind of the reason why amplifiers are also not rated beyond the human audible range. Chances are their signal to noise ratio or total harmonic distortion % starts to deteriorate beyond the audible range.

Speakers and headphones by contrast use a very wide frequency range for two reasons: positive marketing (as opposed to having to admit that distortion and noise are gonna start to become a problem) in an empty way ie there's really nothing to hear there to begin with but it sounds impressive; or actual positive marketing, ie, some transducer designs reach that high and are very, very, very smooth compared to other transducer designs past 10,000hz. Take electrostatics for example. That they sound smoother is not because they produce higher frequencies; but that they can be rated at very high frequencies because the way the drivers move, they actually can move as to reproduce those frequencies, and because they can move at that extreme, they're very stable below that.

Think of speaker ratings like this: I'd buy a 450hp, doppelkuplung Porsche that can generate over 1g when cornering. Do I redline all the time? No, but but having a wide torque curve and 450hp peak means I can overtake before risking a head-on collision. Do I late-brake and downshift three gears then throttle steer my way out of tightening hairpins even when I didn't drive up to Laguna Seca? Also no, but if I ever have to swerve it'll probably be other traffic that hits me rather then just slamming into anything including what I was trying to avoid in the first place. Alternately, I buy aogami steel knives. It's kind of like buying a 1,500watt 80+ Platinum power supply with very high OCP limits (but doesn't break even when you go past the 1500w rating for microseconds at a time). SLI and X-Fire may be dead, but at least if that RTX 3090 Ti's power draw pulls around 900watts for a microsecond, you won't trip the PSU immediately.

FWIW, I started studying "Electronics Communications" in the early 70's, had to drop out because walking into a lab with all the test equipment "hurt" my ears. To this day, I can "hear" police radar units. (I literally hear a "click" when one nearby triggers on...a VERY high-pitched whine while I'm in range...then it either clicks off...or fades out. it's NOT a "fig newton of my imaginative," I tested it with a couple of cops I knew who ran traffic radar. (I don't remember what band they were running at the time)

I'd be more worried about actual spikes in the 1000hz to 10,000hz range than non-existent 40,000hz notes in music. And it looks like you may have this problem. If you haven't ordered the Beyers yet, you might want to just save up for an LCD-2C and a good high back chair to help support the weight.

 

[BoomerD]

First problem: nearly all music recordings wouldn't even have anything below 20hz (heck most barely have anything below 50hz, that's how some people get away with just 6in drivers in a standmount enclosure). So no, you're not gonna miss anything that wasn't even there, much less what you can't even hear. Being able to hear only around 20hz to 20,000hz+ is not age-dependent, it's what's natural to humans. If you or any human can hear far beyond 20,000hz, they'll know when I've got treats in my hand.

Which is kind of the reason why amplifiers are also not rated beyond the human audible range. Chances are their signal to noise ratio or total harmonic distortion % starts to deteriorate beyond the audible range.

Speakers and headphones by contrast use a very wide frequency range for two reasons: positive marketing (as opposed to having to admit that distortion and noise are gonna start to become a problem) in an empty way ie there's really nothing to hear there to begin with but it sounds impressive; or actual positive marketing, ie, some transducer designs reach that high and are very, very, very smooth compared to other transducer designs past 10,000hz. Take electrostatics for example. That they sound smoother is not because they produce higher frequencies; but that they can be rated at very high frequencies because the way the drivers move, they actually can move as to reproduce those frequencies, and because they can move at that extreme, they're very stable below that.

Think of speaker ratings like this: I'd buy a 450hp, doppelkuplung Porsche that can generate over 1g when cornering. Do I redline all the time? No, but but having a wide torque curve and 450hp peak means I can overtake before risking a head-on collision. Do I late-brake and downshift three gears then throttle steer my way out of tightening hairpins even when I didn't drive up to Laguna Seca? Also no, but if I ever have to swerve it'll probably be other traffic that hits me rather then just slamming into anything including what I was trying to avoid in the first place. Alternately, I buy aogami steel knives. It's kind of like buying a 1,500watt 80+ Platinum power supply with very high OCP limits (but doesn't break even when you go past the 1500w rating for microseconds at a time). SLI and X-Fire may be dead, but at least if that RTX 3090 Ti's power draw pulls around 900watts for a microsecond, you won't trip the PSU immediately.




I'd be more worried about actual spikes in the 1000hz to 10,000hz range than non-existent 40,000hz notes in music. And it looks like you may have this problem. If you haven't ordered the Beyers yet, you might want to just save up for an LCD-2C and a good high back chair to help support the weight.

1) I guess the frequency range between headphones and amps thing isn't an issue...While I know it's not 100% accurate...and wouldn't pass muster at an actual audiologist office, I ran one of the "what range can you hear" things on youtube. Turns out, somewhere around 8500Hz...it just goes away. Not a sound after that. I tried it first with the Monoprice Sonic Solace II bluetooth headphones I've been limping along with (connected via 3.5 mm cable) Then, since they arrived today, I tried the same test with the beyerdynamic DT 880 Pro headphones. Not much difference in where the sound cut off for me.

2) The beyers sound hella nice...but (as expected) my PC doesn't push them very well. I get decent volume...but not LOUD. (may or may not be a bad thing) I have to have the system volume cranked to near 100%...which tells me I need some kind of amp. Do I need one with a built-in DAC? I had the monoprice liquid spark in my cart...then realized it only has RCA inputs...won't work for me. I need either a headphone (3.5mm) in, or USB. (that's presuming my motherboard will output sound via USB) That leaves me with one of the "others...Aiyima, FX-Audio, Fiio, or something like a Creative Soundblaster sound card or external device. I have a spare PCI-e slot that I COULD use for a sound card...but dang...I haven't run one of those in around 20 years.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

2) The beyers sound hella nice...but (as expected) my PC doesn't push them very well. I get decent volume...but not LOUD. (may or may not be a bad thing) I have to have the system volume cranked to near 100%...which tells me I need some kind of amp. Do I need one with a built-in DAC?

That depends on you. Do you want a better chance of being able to provide a cleaner analogue signal to the amp? Then get an external DAC with a better analogue output stage.

Note that this is not an absolute guarantee because some noise can go through USB for example. Although if your motherboard has SPDIF output then that's usually cleaner...but again there are cases where that's not what happens ie some motherboards just kind of suck and it's never a guarantee that a more expensive board will be better in the same manner that not all more expensive boards are better at overclocking for example. Basically...there's a reason why I don't use full-on computers for reference listening other than power efficiency for this task making the noise floor an issue, and I just not sweat absolute quality for gaming and YT.

Speaking of gaming...there are implications for gaming audio. If you use virtual surround simulation or any other sound shaping feature that runs off your motherboard's DSP chip if with licensed software running on the CPU for most if not all features, then depending on what features are on the CPU or how the software works, it may not go through USB. Shouldn't be a problem with SPDIF if the board has it though since that's connected to the Realtek audio chip.

At the same time you can just get whatever good amp you like and just add a separate DAC as opposed to restricting your choices to just a DAC-HPamp.

I had the monoprice liquid spark in my cart...then realized it only has RCA inputs...won't work for me. I need either a headphone (3.5mm) in...

https://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics...4&sr=1-2-4c1442dc-e644-4a05-a0d0-ff1b45d55b2f

...or USB. (that's presuming my motherboard will output sound via USB) That leaves me with one of the "others...Aiyima, FX-Audio, Fiio, or something like a Creative Soundblaster sound card or external device.

Motherboards will output sound via USB...if

1. There's a USB DAC connected to it
2. The motherboard can supply power to it. Generally more of a problem on mobile devices instead of desktops, however on older motherboards if you hook up something to each USB slot and you start having power issues even if the DAC used to work.
3. There are no software issues. Generally Windows and MacOS don't have a problem, it's Android, iOS, and Linux that tend to have issues with some devices.

I have a spare PCI-e slot that I COULD use for a sound card...but dang...I haven't run one of those in around 20 years.

You could use that but that depends on your case as much as your board ie it might interfere with airflow to the graphics card. If you've got liquid cooling and it doesn't interfere with the pipes then the only concern is losing the soundcard if you have a leak.

Or you can just use a Sound Blaster or Xonar USB sound"card." These are distinct from regular DAC-HPamps because they have either a software that allows for DSP features or they have a dedicated DSP+DAC chip.

 

[BoomerD]

I may end up getting something like a Soundblaster card. For the past several months, (possibly following a Windows update, not sure) my Realtek system keeps throwing "What device did you plug in?" windows at me...and the front headphone jack doesn't disable the speakers plugged into the rear jacks. I've updated drivers, "removed and reinstalled" the realtek device...no help. It might just be easier (and cheaper) to just install a sound card...IF, as you mentioned, I can get enough clearance between it and my graphics card.

 

[cantcacheme]

Next question...Am I letting nostalgia push my interest in Beyerdynamics? Are there better headphones that will run sound as good or better on my PC?

Finally, I know Beyerdynamics offers several of their "audiophile" quality headphones in 32 ohms, (DT770, DT880, DT990, which will run on the board's output power...but I keep reading they're just not that great, and for the money, I should find something else. I've even considered a couple of different gaming headsets, HyperX Cloud Alpha S, Beyerdynamics TYGR 300R, (no microphone which is fine) Beyerdynamics MMX300...I can't swing their DT 700 Pro X (closed back) or DT900 Pro X (open back) headphones. The $250+ price kills me.

Again, my budget (trying to stay under $150) won't allow me to buy new headphones AND an external amp/DAC.

Opinions? Advice? Recommendations?

Thanks.

I don't know if this was already covered, but I can easily recommend the MMX300 (Gen2) for your use case, the dekoni pads upgrade is a little pricey but certainly worth it for the extra soundstage and bass, also, it is ridiculously comfortable. I recall getting this recommendation from some Youtube review I watched (can't recall which) and was satisfied with just onboard audio for a long time, until I began getting into higher-end closed backs and decent dac/amp units.

I still have my personal unit with the dekoni pads in excellent ( I would say 9/10) condition, unfortunately I can't get the mic to work and no longer have the original box. I now have higher-end headphones to listen to so this combo is just collecting dust in my closet, I can offer you a price within your budget if you are interested.

 

[BoomerD]

I don't know if this was already covered, but I can easily recommend the MMX300 (Gen2) for your use case, the dekoni pads upgrade is a little pricey but certainly worth it for the extra soundstage and bass, also, it is ridiculously comfortable. I recall getting this recommendation from some Youtube review I watched (can't recall which) and was satisfied with just onboard audio for a long time, until I began getting into higher-end closed backs and decent dac/amp units.

I still have my personal unit with the dekoni pads in excellent ( I would say 9/10) condition, unfortunately I can't get the mic to work and no longer have the original box. I now have higher-end headphones to listen to so this combo is just collecting dust in my closet, I can offer you a price within your budget if you are interested.

Thanks, but I've already bought the DT 880 Pros.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I may end up getting something like a Soundblaster card. For the past several months, (possibly following a Windows update, not sure) my Realtek system keeps throwing "What device did you plug in?" windows at me...and the front headphone jack doesn't disable the speakers plugged into the rear jacks. I've updated drivers, "removed and reinstalled" the realtek device...no help. It might just be easier (and cheaper) to just install a sound card...IF, as you mentioned, I can get enough clearance between it and my graphics card.

You can get an external Sound Blaster unit like the X7. That has its own power supply so it's not dependent on bus power, so there's one less issue with the motherboard's hardware. As for hardware and software issues, it will take over all the sound processing, and since you're less likely to use the headphone jack and the X7 has speaker outputs (including a stereo amp for passive stereo speakers), if you use it over USB you can remove all Realtek drivers. It's when you need to use SPDIF with it (in case of motherboard noise) that you'd need to maintain the Realtek drivers so the SPDIF output on the board works.

Note that an internal PCI-E card isn't more of a guarantee of not having noise issues, you just risk more noise from it being inside the computer and getting power from the motherboard and ultimately the PSU. Might as well keep that section clear for airflow to the graphics card or PCI-E to multiple m.2 adapters.

 

[BoomerD]

You can get an external Sound Blaster unit like the X7. That has its own power supply so it's not dependent on bus power, so there's one less issue with the motherboard's hardware. As for hardware and software issues, it will take over all the sound processing, and since you're less likely to use the headphone jack and the X7 has speaker outputs (including a stereo amp for passive stereo speakers), if you use it over USB you can remove all Realtek drivers. It's when you need to use SPDIF with it (in case of motherboard noise) that you'd need to maintain the Realtek drivers so the SPDIF output on the board works.

Note that an internal PCI-E card isn't more of a guarantee of not having noise issues, you just risk more noise from it being inside the computer and getting power from the motherboard and ultimately the PSU. Might as well keep that section clear for airflow to the graphics card or PCI-E to multiple m.2 adapters.

It looks like the X7 isn't made any longer...cheapest NEW one I found was at Amazon (l3rd party) for $459.

I've been looking at the Creative SoundblasterX G6:
https://us.creative.com/p/sound-blaster/sound-blasterx-g6

BUT, there are tons of horrible reviews all over...to counter the reviews that say, "This is the BESTEST external DAC/amp evar!!"

I've been looking (with some concern about quality) at the following:

https://www.amazon.com/AIYIMA-DAC-A...=1661109765&sprefix=aiyima+dac,aps,148&sr=8-1

https://www.newegg.com/p/18M-0251-0... q5-_-9SIARY9C5D2099-_-Product&quicklink=true

Both of those are wall-wart powered, but get the audio signal via USB.

I like the audioengine D1:
https://audioengine.com/shop/components/d1-24-bit-dacheadphone-amp/ (have a line on one for 30% off)
But it's USB powered.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

It looks like the X7 isn't made any longer...cheapest NEW one I found was at Amazon (l3rd party) for $459.

I've been looking at the Creative SoundblasterX G6:
https://us.creative.com/p/sound-blaster/sound-blasterx-g6

BUT, there are tons of horrible reviews all over...to counter the reviews that say, "This is the BESTEST external DAC/amp evar!!"

Those who like the G6 are probably only using it for gaming or if they have something else for music and have nothing to compare it against, or they're using a high sensitivity headphone for their gaming computer and a separate system just for serious music listening.

The main issue with the G6 has been software (not that the G7 never had any) but for your specific use case ie with higher impedance headphones (or even with low sensitivity, low impedance headphones) is that it doesn't have its own power supply. The G6 is totally reliant on how much power it can get via USB.

I've been looking (with some concern about quality) at the following:

https://www.amazon.com/AIYIMA-DAC-A5pro-Headphone-DAC-ESS9018K2M/dp/B09PMDN86V/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1OE161KZWBDTY&keywords=aiyima+dac+a5+pro&qid=1661109765&sprefix=aiyima+dac,aps,148&sr=8-1

https://www.newegg.com/p/18M-0251-00025?Description=fosi audio dac q5&cm_re=fosi_audio dac q5-_-9SIARY9C5D2099-_-Product&quicklink=true

Both of those are wall-wart powered, but get the audio signal via USB.

You can check the games you play first. If they all have a headphone audio option then it won't matter - the game itself processes that so it should go through USB. Some older games get updated so if you haven't checked in a while maybe your other games already have it.

If your games have headphone audio option and you'd just get a straight up DAC and HPamp without a DSP chip, I'd still get a Schiit Modi and Magni than either of those.

 

[BoomerD]

Those who like the G6 are probably only using it for gaming or if they have something else for music and have nothing to compare it against, or they're using a high sensitivity headphone for their gaming computer and a separate system just for serious music listening.

The main issue with the G6 has been software (not that the G7 never had any) but for your specific use case ie with higher impedance headphones (or even with low sensitivity, low impedance headphones) is that it doesn't have its own power supply. The G6 is totally reliant on how much power it can get via USB.





You can check the games you play first. If they all have a headphone audio option then it won't matter - the game itself processes that so it should go through USB. Some older games get updated so if you haven't checked in a while maybe your other games already have it.

If your games have headphone audio option and you'd just get a straight up DAC and HPamp without a DSP chip, I'd still get a Schiit Modi and Magni than either of those.

If only my budget would allow... it's a b*tch being old and on a fixed income.
There's a guy not far from me with an Audinst HUD-MX1 dac/amp for a reasonable price. Any input?
http://www.audinst.com/en/mx1

ALSO, pbui44 mentioned the lavaudio dac/amp...opinions?
https://smile.amazon.com/DS400-Amplifier-Headphone-Support-Compatible/dp/B09MCHZCRJ/ref=sr_1_8?crid=1U0L6JT8KXWDI&keywords=headphone+amp&qid=1661935084&refinements=p_n_specials_match:21213697011&rnid=21213696011&sprefix=headphone+amp,aps,140&sr=8-8

Both have power in and usb for data in...might not be the top shelf quality I'd like...but they're both in my budget.

 

[BoomerD]

Well...crap. I just heard from ASRock. The USB ports on the rear IO are only for data transfer, not audio .

So, that means what? Find an amp that has 3.5mm input?

 

[RingingEars]

I see your in Washington. If your in Spokane I have a Liquid Spark and an older Fubar 2 dac I could loan you...

 

[BoomerD]

I see your in Washington. If your in Spokane I have a Liquid Spark and an older Fubar 2 dac I could loan you...

I'm about 300 miles west of you...any farther west and I'd be in the ocean.

But, hey...thanks for the great offer.

 

[pbui44]

Well, if you don't mind eBay , then this amp is known to pair well with the HD650 (300 ohms) and is NIB with a best offer:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/275433807057

If you still need a DAC, then you can get this one brand new, just get a USB-C-female-to-A-male adapter to connect it to your motherboard:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/294539131255

https://www.ebay.com/itm/403795969258