[erock2112]

Hey guys, I'm sure you get this kind of post all the time, so sorry if I'm repeating old threads. I'm a music composition major with a career goal of music and sound design for film and video games. I'm looking for a good pair of headphones for mixing. I'll admit that I don't have much experience with headphones, so I'm not sure whether I'm looking for an open or closed-back model, nor am I sure about impedance matching. The models suggested to me as I was shopping around were the Sennheiser HD380, the AKG K240, the Audio-Technica M-50, and the Beyerdynamic DT770. While shopping around online, I decided I liked the Beyerdynamic DT880. I was able to hear the first four today. I thought the Sennheisers sounded a little boxy in the low end, and the high mids seemed forceful. I didn't like the way the AKG's fit, though they sounded pretty good. The Audio-Technica's, which came recommended to me by a rep from HeadRoom, sounded good, but the construction felt a little cheap in comparison to the other models. I really liked the Beyer 770's. They fit and sounded great to me.

So here's my issue. I'm tempted to go for the 770's, but I really want to hear the 880's first, but no store nearby carries them. So that tempts me to buy the 880's online, take them in to a store and compare them to the others, and then decide whether to return them or keep them. The potential problem is that the 880's have an impedance of 250 ohms versus the 80 ohm of the 770's. I'm using an audio interface whose maximum headphone output is rated at 150 mW/CH @ 60 ohm load. I assume that the 770's would be fine, but would the 880's require a headphone amp? The added cost of the amp plus the price of the 880's might push it over my budget if that's the case (I'd like to stay under $300 us). There's also a version of the 880 with an impedance of 35 ohms. Would those sound different from the 250 ohm 880's?

I'm open to suggestions for other headphones. I think that my budget requires I buy headphones for which I wouldn't need an amp. Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[Acix]

The M-50 are a good start, then you have the GMP 8.35 D Monitor and the K240MKll and up to HD600 and K702. As well you have the vintage monitor hp's and they are more flat sounds design, like the K240 DF or the Fostex T20/10, Sansui SS-35 and the DT48E/S.

 

[jayeshrc]

as far as i've heard, the 250 version sounds better.. I'll let some experienced person handle the question of how diff the sound (or you could just search..) but sound quality wise i'm pretty sure they'll outperform the m50s albeit with a diff sound signature, so its all upto you.. If you can spend enough for the 880s (dunno if you'll need an amp or not..) then go for it. Or go for the m50 if you cant spend that much.

 

[erock2112]

Thanks for the responses.

Quote:

If you can spend enough for the 880s (dunno if you'll need an amp or not..) then go for it. Or go for the m50 if you cant spend that much.

I guess that's the issue. I think I can afford the 880's if I DON'T need an amp, but if I do, it'll start to be out of my price range. It looks like I could get the K701's (it looks like the color and detachable cable are the only differences between that and the K702, and there's a significant price margin) or the HD600's for about the same as the Beyer 880's. The problem with the 880's or HD600's is that I may or may not need an amp. It looks like the K701 has an impedance of 62ohms, which matches well with my interface's headphone out. Anybody know if a 60 ohm output can power a 250 or 300 (the HD600) ohm headphone without an amp?

 

[nickchen]

The K701 or K702 is indeed a good idea, as it sounds deadly neutral, which is IMO important for monitoring. The K601 or the HD600 would also work well if you want to save money.

I wouldn't use the DT880 (strong highs) or the DT770 (big bass + strong highs), the result of your works could sound strange when being reproduced with less coloured devices. And I also wouldn't use midfi stuff of the HD380 and A50 category, too many details would be suppressed.

If you get stress with your impedance thing, you can easely cure this by means of a simple headphone amp. I don't know what consumer or nerd gear you have there, generally all today's cans sound best and most neutral when being fed by a zero ohm source. High ohm cans à la HD600 or DT880 tend to behave a bit better on bad high ohm sources, but with low ohm cans you get severely "damaged" sound out of the usual high ohm plugs of today's consumer integrated amps.

 

[avan]

any of the headphones you are talking about will not sound good at all without being amped they are all quite high impedence phones, if you want to do some good mixing my first suggestion would be some k701s, just because you will be able to discern where everything is but again you should get an amp for them.

 

[SoulSyde]

erock2112,

I would definitely recommend the K240 MK II's. The only other cans I've listened to were the Beyers and they sounded great, but boomy. If you mix with bass-heavy cans your final mix will come out weak in the low end. The K240's are very even amongst all frequencies, plus they are super comfortable for long mix sessions.

I often switch between my desk monitors and my K240's while I'm putting the final touches on a track. I often forget they're on my head they're so comfortable.

Good luck.

 

[jayeshrc]

the m50 wont need an amp.. And its got a pretty flat sound except for a tad mid range recession.. Dunno about the others. Just check that your source doesnt have too high an output for them.. I dont know much about that but i'm guessing it'll be bad if its overpowering em.. Cant seem to find the input rating for the m50 right now for some reason..

 

[blackcoffee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by avan /img/forum/go_quote.gif any of the headphones you are talking about will not sound good at all without being amped they are all quite high impedence phones, if you want to do some good mixing my first suggestion would be some k701s, just because you will be able to discern where everything is but again you should get an amp for them.

Beeing more of a music fan (with slightly damaged ears due to years of rehersal studios with marshall amps full open) than a high-end audio buff, I have to agree that the K-701 might be very useful when recording and parts of the mixing process. You can hear every mistake and every detail. Every breath, every footstep etc.

During the final mixing and the mastering though, you'd have to be verycareful as the purpose of mixing and mastering is not usually to create something that sounds good in a perfect setup but something that sounds good for most people including those using tv sets, car audio and small radios. Therefore much experience must be applied when making the final adjustments, and possibly lots of reference listening to final products with the same "sonic footprint" as you aspire for (this is not unique for the K-701:s though).

I suspect that the less experienced using K-701:s for final mix and mastering will get a product with LOTS of BASS when played in a normal persons stereo...

(no, this is not a K-701 bashing post, i love mine for most kinds of music, but a reminder that it might not be the best product for all parts of the recording-mixing-mastering process, depending on what you're recording).

 

[jayeshrc]

^^ exactly what i was thinkin.. (btw are you the same erock on ug and youtube? Kickass stuff you got going on there man! Love your ibanez rg570 too!)

 

[erock2112]

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackcoffee During the final mixing and the mastering though, you'd have to be verycareful as the purpose of mixing and mastering is not usually to create something that sounds good in a perfect setup but something that sounds good for most people including those using tv sets, car audio and small radios. Therefore much experience must be applied when making the final adjustments, and possibly lots of reference listening to final products with the same "sonic footprint" as you aspire for (this is not unique for the K-701:s though).

I think the idea is that you mix on an ideal setup and then listen on multiple setups (your cheap headphones, stereo, in the car, etc) to make sure it translates. I'm not worried about having too good of a setup

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayeshrc (btw are you the same erock on ug and youtube? Kickass stuff you got going on there man! Love your ibanez rg570 too!)

Sorry, I'm not the same guy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickchen /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't know what consumer or nerd gear you have there, generally all today's cans sound best and most neutral when being fed by a zero ohm source. High ohm cans à la HD600 or DT880 tend to behave a bit better on bad high ohm sources, but with low ohm cans you get severely "damaged" sound out of the usual high ohm plugs of today's consumer integrated amps.

My interface is a Presonus Firestudio Project. HTML Code:

[left][color=#008000]<a href = "http://www.presonus.com/products/Detail.aspx?ProductId=43">[/color]Here's[color=#008000]</a>[/color][/left]

a link to the website which has the important information listed under the tech specs tab, under the headphone output heading.

I don't think I understand what you're saying, nickchen. My (limited) understanding was that higher impedance cans required a higher impedance source to provide the increased power/more headroom that they need to sound really good. What source has an impedance of zero ohms? I'd heard that most mp3 players are around 16, and everything goes up from there, which is why an amp is required when using a low-impedance source like an mp3 player.

Quote:

Originally Posted by avan any of the headphones you are talking about will not sound good at all without being amped they are all quite high impedence phones, if you want to do some good mixing my first suggestion would be some k701s, just because you will be able to discern where everything is but again you should get an amp for them.

The K701's are only 62 ohm, compared to the 300ohm rating of the HD600... You're saying that it would definitely require an amp, even with my interface's headphone out rated at 60? Maybe I'm just not fully grasping the impedance concept.

 

[nickchen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by erock2112 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't think I understand what you're saying, nickchen. My (limited) understanding was that higher impedance cans required a higher impedance source to provide the increased power/more headroom that they need to sound really good. What source has an impedance of zero ohms? I'd heard that most mp3 players are around 16, and everything goes up from there, which is why an amp is required when using a low-impedance source like an mp3 player.

And I doubt that both my electrical engineering and English skills are sufficient to start high level job talking on impedance. I've just listened to quite some stuff over the years and gave an advice based on that.

 

[rds]

Quote:

Originally Posted by erock2112 /img/forum/go_quote.gif What source has an impedance of zero ohms? I'd heard that most mp3 players are around 16, and everything goes up from there, which is why an amp is required when using a low-impedance source like an mp3 player.

I take it by "source" you mean "amp" ...?
If you're talking about amps, most solid state have an output impedance close to zero ohms. Op-amps themselves have output impedances close to zero ohms.
The reason for wanting very low impedance amps is not really easy to put in lay terms, but suffice to say the higher the impedance the more the amp changes the frequency response of the phones.

 

[erock2112]

Ok, I think I've figured out what I've been confused about. The max headphone output of my interface is 150 mW/CH at 60 ohm load. I had assumed that the 150 mW/CH was a constant, and that meant the 60 ohm was the rating of the output. Clearly, this is incorrect, and the figure simply means that if the load (the headphone) has an impedance of 60 ohms, the output on the interface can provide a maximum of 150mW/CH to the headphones. So the question becomes, how many mW/CH does a headphone (in general) need? Assuming we're dealing with a linear relationship, one should be able to figure out whether the 150mW at 60ohm load translates to an acceptable wattage at the higher load (250?)

 

[erock2112]

Just saw this thread:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f4/k702-studio-393139/

posted by Acix. This is causing me to lean heavily toward the K701's, as they are a little cheaper but are very, very similar to the K702's. Acix, you said they were powered by your NI interface, whose maximum output is rated at 100mA at 100ohm load, which is actually comparably to my interface, rated at 150mA at 60ohm load. This makes me feel pretty confident that my interface will power the K701's with no problems.