[KarateKid]

I've been playing around with xlr cables for my hd650s going into the back of my dac1's balanced outputs. Sounds good but I can definately feel that it's missing some "umpf".

I've been looking around for a good balanced amp that reasonably priced (no more than $1000). Seems like all the amps that are balanced and have balanced output cost an arm and a leg.

Can anyone please guide me through what popular models are available? Also some I need to be clarified on some fundementals on amps, what's the difference between an opamp based amp and a discrete designed amp? With $1000, can I expect anything decent for the money?

 

[jh4db536]

you could build a barebones Beta22
$340 for 4 amp board kits
$105 for 1 Sigma22 powersupply kit
$30 for a transformer
$150 Joshua Tree Stepped Attenuator (Balanced) + Pot // or DACT $$$
the remainder is for the enclosure, misc hardware, neutrik XLR sockets, terminal blocks, knobs, etc.

You will need to build Everything of course in order to stay within your budget, but in the end youll have an amp that competes in the $1500 range.

Professionally built, this amp is probably 1500-2000.

 

[Dreadhead]

Hi,

I have a "bare bones" beta22 (4 beta22, 1 sigma22 and 2 stepped attenuators) and it's not bare bones at all.

The fact is that the power that most phones require you don't need 2/4/ sigma 22 PSU boards but hey more power is always better right

Right now I'm trying to compare the beta22 with the Headamp GS-X and honestly I'm either deaf or both amps are so neutral and effortless that you can't even tell the difference. I am almost convinced you can pay more for a balanced amp but either of these is as good as high fidelity (exact reproduction of the original signal) gets. Pay more and you start hearing words such as color, and warm and other code words for distorted response.

As far as you original question goes you could always buy a Headroom Balanced Desktop and upgrade the PSU later. I would recommend the stepped attenuator right away though which may make it too pricy for you....

Good luck with the amp search!

I'll likely be selling one of my amps in a month or two once I pick a favorite. Which will most likely be based on aesthetics

 

[KarateKid]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jh4db536 /img/forum/go_quote.gif you could build a barebones Beta22 $340 for 4 amp board kits $105 for 1 Sigma22 powersupply kit $30 for a transformer $150 Joshua Tree Stepped Attenuator (Balanced) + Pot // or DACT $$$ the remainder is for the enclosure, misc hardware, neutrik XLR sockets, terminal blocks, knobs, etc. You will need to build Everything of course in order to stay within your budget, but in the end youll have an amp that competes in the $1500 range. Professionally built, this amp is probably 1500-2000.

Thanks for all the replies guys.

Sounds like a good deal. I believe one can always get better milage when going DYI on hobbies.

If I may ask, does the beta22 use opamp design or discrete? If so, what's the difference? Can I use any opamp to my own liking?

 

[Dreadhead]

It's fully discrete. Here's the website of the designer:

The β22 Stereo Amplifier

Some people have also built balanced versions of their mini3 designs. You can also build the Gilmore designs:

DIY RESOURCES - Kevin Gilmore DYNAMIC HEADPHONE AMPLIFIERS and POWER SUPPLIES

good luck. I didn't build I bought second hand.

 

[n_maher]

Warning: DIY rant incoming...

Quote:

Originally Posted by jh4db536 /img/forum/go_quote.gif you could build a barebones Beta22 $340 for 4 amp board kits $105 for 1 Sigma22 powersupply kit $30 for a transformer $150 Joshua Tree Stepped Attenuator (Balanced) + Pot // or DACT $$$ the remainder is for the enclosure, misc hardware, neutrik XLR sockets, terminal blocks, knobs, etc.

Not to nit-pick but this is somewhat of a pet peeve for me. You will have an extremely hard time building a balanced (4 board, single PS) beta22 for less than $1000. For starters you're not including shipping figures in any of your calculations, which trust me will add up fast. Next up, you're going to need a huge chassis if you put it all in the same enclosure, which in itself is a really bad idea. So plan on one large, one medium sized box. That brings me to the next big hurdle, case work and fabrication. The tools to build this amp could exhaust half your budget, easy. I mean do you really want to hack up the chassis that you just spent good money on and end up with a cruddy looking amp? So here's the thing, if you DIY on a daily basis and are proficient with chassis fabrication on a large scale project like this then yes, you can probably build one for around $1000. But if you're new to DIY, forget about it and do yourself a favor and start with something that will be a lot more forgiving of the mistakes that are likely to be made.

Quote:

You will need to build Everything of course in order to stay within your budget, but in the end youll have an amp that competes in the $1500 range.

Try $5000 range. There is pretty much nothing on the commercial market that is the technical equivalent of the beta22. Can you get good sound out of what is offered, sure, but from an engineering perspective forget about it unless you're spending far above what we're talking about here. The balanced beta22 is a fully discrete, deeply class A, 50WPC speaker amp for goodness sake.

Quote:

Professionally built, this amp is probably 1500-2000.

While some have offered them at this price before those that have done it are no longer doing it. Why? Because a simple balanced beta22 will probably take somewhere in the 40 to 60 hour range to build. I don't build amps for profit, never have, never will, but someone asked recently what I thought a fair price was for a balanced beta22 and here's my math.

Parts: $1500 (based on the minimum chassis requirements that I would have for this build)

Labor: assume 50hrs x $30hr = $1500 (and that's a cheap labor rate)

Base price: $3000

And mind you I wouldn't do it for that figure even if I was doing it, which I'm not.

So, sorry for the rant, I swear it's almost over, but people around here have a real lack of appreciation for what it takes to not only build something but to build it well. Yeah, you can hack something together for less but guess what, it's probably not going to last long. I could probably make a legit business out of fixing botched DIY builds that people have sold and that's half the problem. The other half is that people equate the parts cost of an amp with it values, which is nonsense in my book. [/rant]

If I may be allowed to make one on topic observation, the Headroom Balanced Desktop Amp is a great choice.

Ok, enough out of me for one day.

 

[KarateKid]

What's better? Discrete or opamps? I know it's a very generalized question but I'm not having much luck finding any answers.

 

[n_maher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KarateKid /img/forum/go_quote.gif What's better? Discrete or opamps? I know it's a very generalized question but I'm not having much luck finding any answers.

That's because there is no simple answer, at least not in my book. Each comes with some associated design requirements/compromises. Generally speaking I think that it is possible to get better performance out of a fully discrete design but that doesn't mean that it's the best solution to every problem. I don't share the popular feeling that one must associate shame with opamp based designs.

 

[KarateKid]

Quote:

Originally Posted by n_maher /img/forum/go_quote.gif Warning: DIY rant incoming... Not to nit-pick but this is somewhat of a pet peeve for me. You will have an extremely hard time building a balanced (4 board, single PS) beta22 for less than $1000. For starters you're not including shipping figures in any of your calculations, which trust me will add up fast. Next up, you're going to need a huge chassis if you put it all in the same enclosure, which in itself is a really bad idea. So plan on one large, one medium sized box. That brings me to the next big hurdle, case work and fabrication. The tools to build this amp could exhaust half your budget, easy. I mean do you really want to hack up the chassis that you just spent good money on and end up with a cruddy looking amp? So here's the thing, if you DIY on a daily basis and are proficient with chassis fabrication on a large scale project like this then yes, you can probably build one for around $1000. But if you're new to DIY, forget about it and do yourself a favor and start with something that will be a lot more forgiving of the mistakes that are likely to be made. Try $5000 range. There is pretty much nothing on the commercial market that is the technical equivalent of the beta22. Can you get good sound out of what is offered, sure, but from an engineering perspective forget about it unless you're spending far above what we're talking about here. The balanced beta22 is a fully discrete, deeply class A, 50WPC speaker amp for goodness sake. While some have offered them at this price before those that have done it are no longer doing it. Why? Because a simple balanced beta22 will probably take somewhere in the 40 to 60 hour range to build. I don't build amps for profit, never have, never will, but someone asked recently what I thought a fair price was for a balanced beta22 and here's my math. Parts: $1500 (based on the minimum chassis requirements that I would have for this build) Labor: assume 50hrs x $30hr = $1500 (and that's a cheap labor rate) Base price: $3000 And mind you I wouldn't do it for that figure even if I was doing it, which I'm not. So, sorry for the rant, I swear it's almost over, but people around here have a real lack of appreciation for what it takes to not only build something but to build it well. Yeah, you can hack something together for less but guess what, it's probably not going to last long. I could probably make a legit business out of fixing botched DIY builds that people have sold and that's half the problem. The other half is that people equate the parts cost of an amp with it values, which is nonsense in my book. [/rant] If I may be allowed to make one on topic observation, the Headroom Balanced Desktop Amp is a great choice. Ok, enough out of me for one day.

Thanks for the info.

If I were to get someone to build me a beta22, I'll be looking at $3000 minimum? At that range, could I might as well get a pre-built balanced amp of the same class from a popular brand? Is the beta22 considered "better" than a pre-made professional balanced amp?

 

[synaesthetic]

I may be unpopular when I say this but I like opamp designs because you can quickly change the sound signature simply by plugging in a new opamp.

 

[KarateKid]

Quote:

Originally Posted by n_maher /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's because there is no simple answer, at least not in my book. Each comes with some associated design requirements/compromises. Generally speaking I think that it is possible to get better performance out of a fully discrete design but that doesn't mean that it's the best solution to every problem. I don't share the popular feeling that one must associate shame with opamp based designs.

Hmmm, but what are the major differences between opamp vs discrete? What should I expect in a normal case scenerio?

 

[n_maher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KarateKid /img/forum/go_quote.gif If I were to get someone to build me a beta22, I'll be looking at $3000 minimum? At that range, could I might as well get a pre-built balanced amp of the same class from a popular brand? Is the beta22 considered "better" than a pre-made professional balanced amp?

I'm sure you can get one for less, you just have to ask yourself - are you willing to risk half that amount for something built by someone who could up and disappear a day after they deliver the amp to you? Don't get me wrong, there are some very reputable builders who would surely do it for less than $3k, but I'd guess that number is pretty small. I'll stay away from the subjective "betterness" debate since those usually don't go so well. Bottom line, if you're thinking of dropping that kind of money get yourself a plane ticket and a hotel room and come on down to CanJam and listen for yourself. There will be a balanced beta22 there that just sold for around the figure above.

 

[KarateKid]

Quote:

Originally Posted by n_maher /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm sure you can get one for less, you just have to ask yourself - are you willing to risk half that amount for something built by someone who could up and disappear a day after they deliver the amp to you? Don't get me wrong, there are some very reputable builders who would surely do it for less than $3k, but I'd guess that number is pretty small. I'll stay away from the subjective "betterness" debate since those usually don't go so well. Bottom line, if you're thinking of dropping that kind of money get yourself a plane ticket and a hotel room and come on down to CanJam and listen for yourself. There will be a balanced beta22 there that just sold for around the figure above.

But for the money (1k - 2k -3k), can the other balanced amps be on the same level as a well built beta22? I don't mind travelling and spending a bit of money doing so but my job needs me 7 days a week. This hobby demands a lot of time, its more complex than picking out the shiniest and fastest car in the lot.

 

[synaesthetic]

My opinion may weigh in somewhat less than the gurus within this forum, but if I were to spend such an amount of money on an amp, I would certainly build it myself so that I could customize it exactly the way I wanted it.

 

[n_maher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KarateKid /img/forum/go_quote.gif But for the money (1k - 2k -3k), can the other balanced amps be on the same level as a well built beta22?

If you look purely at the economics of it the answer is probably not. I've just told you that a well built balanced beta22 is going to run north of $1000. There exists somewhat of an industry standard that in order to properly cover the actual cost of making that amp you'd have to mark it up somewhere between 3 and 5x. That's to pay the person to build it, pay someone to sell it, pay for a website or business where they can get information about it and also provide warranty support for some chosen duration. All those things are real costs and are in no way included in the $1000+ figure.

And again, as I mentioned previously the beta22 doesn't have a technical pier, no one else is doing discrete high power designs in the commercial realm (headphone realm mind you) so while other amps may have a comparable price tag the comparison still might not be all that appropriate. And I have yet to see a DIY build that could match, say, the fit and finish of something like a Headamp product.