[cvince]

Well, I'm used to be a basshead and I've recently been getting back into the rap/hip-hop world.

I've decided to EQ some Trick Daddy to oblivion in iTunes by reducing the preamp to -12db, and +11db on the 32Hz band. According to my Juli@ dB meters, the sound doesn't ever reach peak.

I realize when I crank the Gilmore Lite past 3:00, my K701s start clipping. Does this mean they are being overdriven?

 

[Tech2]

If you are emphasizing the lows into your amp you may be driving the amp to its saturation point. It can only put out X amount of power and the amplified output signal will flatten, or cut off, the peaks. This causes the distortion you're hearing.

My understanding is that it can damage speakers. Probably not the best thing for your headphones either.

 

[jcx]

HeadAmp specs their Gilmore Lite output swing at 15 Vpp => 5.3 Vrms

looking at the circuit I think this could really be the clipping limit - the Lite circuit is very wasteful of supply V


the K701 specs 105 dB/V

5.3 Vrms gives ~ +14 dB power re 1 Vrms

this gives ~ 119 dB SPL at HeadAmp's output V swing spec

with your 20 dB bass boost amp clipping is possible but the 119 dB clipping level SPL would be dangerous to you hearing

read:
http://headwize.com/articles/hearing_art.htm

 

[cotdt]

do you have the PSU upgrade or are you using a wallwart? the amp probably isn't getting enough power. you could also buy another Gilmore Lite and use the pair of them in a balanced configuration for 4 times the output.

 

[Chops]

You're probably overloading the Lite's input, and with all of that bass boost, the power sucking K701's are draining the Lite's output.

IOW, you're msot likely feeding the Lite an already clipped signal, then sending that clipped signal through the amp, and the amp output is also clipping, giving your K701's a double wammy clipped signal.

NOT good by any means. Be prepared to kiss your K701's goodbye when you burn up the voice coils!

 

[jmmtn4aj]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cotdt /img/forum/go_quote.gif do you have the PSU upgrade or are you using a wallwart? the amp probably isn't getting enough power. you could also buy another Gilmore Lite and use the pair of them in a balanced configuration for 4 times the output.

.. What? How?

 

[cvince]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tech2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you are emphasizing the lows into your amp you may be driving the amp to its saturation point. It can only put out X amount of power and the amplified output signal will flatten, or cut off, the peaks. This causes the distortion you're hearing. My understanding is that it can damage speakers. Probably not the best thing for your headphones either.

I'm not sure how this power stuff works, but if the amp is capable of outputting 1W of power, is a 11db boost at 32Hz really that much of a concern?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcx /img/forum/go_quote.gif HeadAmp specs their Gilmore Lite output swing at 15 Vpp => 5.3 Vrms looking at the circuit I think this could really be the clipping limit - the Lite circuit is very wasteful of supply V the K701 specs 105 dB/V 5.3 Vrms gives ~ +14 dB power re 1 Vrms this gives ~ 119 dB SPL at HeadAmp's output V swing spec with your 20 dB bass boost amp clipping is possible but the 119 dB clipping level SPL would be dangerous to you hearing read: http://headwize.com/articles/hearing_art.htm

It's not a +20dB bass boost. It's +11dB.

~+20dB would be if I cut all the other bands to -12 and cranked the glite volume to max.

Though I realize this may be harmful to my hearing, I only indulge in crazy bass for very short periods of time. It's the satisfaction of having the ability to output of powerful bass I am more concerned with. I'm not necessarily going to listen to powerful bass for extended periods of time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cotdt /img/forum/go_quote.gif do you have the PSU upgrade or are you using a wallwart? the amp probably isn't getting enough power. you could also buy another Gilmore Lite and use the pair of them in a balanced configuration for 4 times the output.

1) I'm using the wallwart. You think the PSU might give the amp enough power?
I don't quite understand the "increased power" aspect of a PSU upgrade. Doesn't a higher quality PSU just give your amp higher quality/more consistent Voltage/current? If the amp requires X voltage at Y current for any given signal, wouldn't the power still be P=XY regardless of which PSU is being used?

2) I always thought balanced was softer than unbalanced due to the added negative-phase signal.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Chops /img/forum/go_quote.gif You're probably overloading the Lite's input, and with all of that bass boost, the power sucking K701's are draining the Lite's output. IOW, you're msot likely feeding the Lite an already clipped signal, then sending that clipped signal through the amp, and the amp output is also clipping, giving your K701's a double wammy clipped signal. NOT good by any means. Be prepared to kiss your K701's goodbye when you burn up the voice coils!

The signal is not even clipping according to the Juli@'s output meters. It only hits red when it's really bassy due to the bass dominance in my EQ setting. In fact, the average dB of the signal is much lower with EQ than it is without, because of the -12dB decreased preamp. My source is definitely not clipping at all.

As for the clipping due to lack of power, I still find it a bit hard to believe that my Gilmore Lite is unable to output what I am requesting from it with 1W output.

Seeing how most amps have 1W of power, is it safe to say that car subwoofer junkies will never really be satisfied in the headphone world?

Thanks for the wake up call Chops> I'll try to refrain from risking damaing my K701s by boosting so much.

The Gilmore Lite is definitely excellent for my normal listening situations (in which case at least 80% of my material is classical), but I also tend to like my excessive bass every now and then

.
Are there any amps designed for excessive bass?

 

[Chops]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cvince /img/forum/go_quote.gif The signal is not even clipping according to the Juli@'s output meters. It only hits red when it's really bassy due to the bass dominance in my EQ setting. In fact, the average dB of the signal is much lower with EQ than it is without, because of the -12dB decreased preamp. My source is definitely not clipping at all. As for the clipping due to lack of power, I still find it a bit hard to believe that my Gilmore Lite is unable to output what I am requesting from it with 1W output. Seeing how most amps have 1W of power, is it safe to say that car subwoofer junkies will never really be satisfied in the headphone world? The Gilmore Lite is definitely excellent for my normal listening situations (in which case at least 80% of my material is classical), but I also tend to like my excessive bass every now and then . Are there any amps designed for excessive bass?

I never said your source was clipping. I said you're probably overloading the Lite's input.

And don't think that the Lite isn't clipping on the output either. Just because it's rated at 1W doesn't mean anything. Bass, especially overdone, excessive bass will suck up that 1W before you even know what happened, especially when powering the K701's which needs lots of current for normal amounts of bass.

Yes, I know you boosted the bass +11dB and turned the output down -12dB, but that doesn't matter. All that did was adjust the overall output by -12dB. That +11dB @ 32Hz is STILL at least +6 to +9dB higher than it was before from the original signal.

The +6 to +9dB boost, PLUS the addition of driving the power-hungry K701's, you're still going to be taxing out the amp's output, even if you're not overdriving the input.

A good rule of thumb for home and car audio has always been that if you have 100W RMS for your main channels, you should have at least 10x that much for the sub(s), meaning 1000W RMS for the bass!

 

[cvince]

if this is true, then is it also safe to say that the Gilmore Lite is incompetent at playing orchestral music at full volume? According to JCX's article from HeadWize, http://headwize.com/articles/hearing_art.htm, would a symphonic music peak of 120-137dB be too taxing on the Lite's inputs and outputs if I attempt to play my Strauss at realistic volumes (Strauss is the king of dynamic range)?

Of course, with symphonic music, I am not trying to boost the bass oblivion. However, there is still a much stronger bass presence when I attend real-life concerts than I hear through my headphones when I try playing my recordings at realistic volumes.

 

[sacd lover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cvince /img/forum/go_quote.gif if this is true, then is it also safe to say that the Gilmore Lite is incompetent at playing orchestral music at full volume? According to JCX's article from HeadWize, http://headwize.com/articles/hearing_art.htm, would a symphonic music peak of 120-137dB be too taxing on the Lite's inputs and outputs if I attempt to play my Strauss at realistic volumes (Strauss is the king of dynamic range)? Of course, with symphonic music, I am not trying to boost the bass oblivion. However, there is still a much stronger bass presence when I attend real-life concerts than I hear through my headphones when I try playing my recordings at realistic volumes.

120db-137db .... do you want to suffer hearing damage immediately?

The 701 has a maximum input of 200mw. With a sensitivity of 92-93 db@ 1mw input, the maximum SPL for the 701 would be 115-116db. With +11 db of bass boost you will hit the power maximum of the 701 @ around 105db SPL. What is being taxed is the headphone.

The reason there is more presence bass live is your body feels the bass as much as your ears hear the bass. You will never get the overall bass feel you do live or with speakers. However, if you persist listening at such extreme volumes ..... you will end up with hearing damage.

 

[Chops]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cvince /img/forum/go_quote.gif if this is true, then is it also safe to say that the Gilmore Lite is incompetent at playing orchestral music at full volume? According to JCX's article from HeadWize, http://headwize.com/articles/hearing_art.htm, would a symphonic music peak of 120-137dB be too taxing on the Lite's inputs and outputs if I attempt to play my Strauss at realistic volumes (Strauss is the king of dynamic range)? Of course, with symphonic music, I am not trying to boost the bass oblivion. However, there is still a much stronger bass presence when I attend real-life concerts than I hear through my headphones when I try playing my recordings at realistic volumes.

"if this is true, then is it also safe to say that the Gilmore Lite is incompetent" ?!?!?!?!

No, it's perfectly safe to say that the Gilmore Lite isn't the "incompetent" one here...

It's doing what it's supposed to do, however, the operator is asking both the amp and headphones to go well beyond thier capabilities. Once you burn up your headphones (and you WILL!), maybe then you'll learn.

But hey, what do I know...

 

[cvince]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chops /img/forum/go_quote.gif the operator is asking both the amp and headphones to go well beyond thier capabilities. Once you burn up your headphones (and you WILL!), maybe then you'll learn.

Hence, the operator is incompetent

.

Was just testing the capabilities of my setup is all.
It's like owning a ferrari (or an S2000 for your sake). What's the point of paying $2500000 for a car if you aren't going to test its capabilities? Sure keeping your S2K redlined at 9000 RPM for extended periods of time is going to "burn the engine up", but nobody in their right mind would do that to their poor car. Just as I'm not insane enough to subject my ears, or my system to such high levels for extended periods of time.

Anyways, I was confused mainly because of a thread I opened up earlier
(http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showth...34#post2535634) where people reported to turning up their glites to 2-3 o-clock positions very confidently, but now I realize that is a bad idea even for soft classical recordings that have loud crescendos.