[Chris_h]

Hello all, I'm new to the forums, and to be honest, new to the audio-enthusiast world.

First of all, after careful consideration and some digging in these (exceedingly-helpful) forums, among other places, I bought the Audio Technica's AD700 Headphones. Allow me to explain. I am an FPS gamer(I play HL2DM, to be exact) and as such, soundstage/imaging is very important to me. Before, I've never had any audio-enthusiast headphones/gear/anything... in fact I knew nothing about it, barely knew much about it really, only things I knew where 5.1, and 7.1 surround sound and that was the extent of my knowledge.

In any case, after some direction from a fellow gamer, he pointed me to better audio gear, explaining soundstage and encouraging me to get quality headphones. When I asked him what I should get, he told me he had Senn. HD555s. Using that as a reference I found this place, and have searched around. Long story short, I decided on AD700's. I ordered them from Amazon(Along with a Zalman clip-on mic) and should be getting them this Saturday, and I am very exited.

However, I read multiple times on the forums about how I wouldn't get the full extent of any good headphone's potential without a good sound card. After finding out what my computer has(never cared before, really) I found I have integrated Realtek HD Audio ALC888 for a sound card.

My question is this, would getting a sound card within my budget of $40 - $80 make that much of a difference? I have heard that integrated sound cards are terrible, but to me, this one sounds just fine, but then again I have never heard any real quality sound from headsets(or speakers for that matter) at all, so I really don't know how to judge if it's good or not.

So, it seems I have 4 options.
1)Not buy anything else and stick with what i got
2)Buy a new sound card within my budget (only if it makes a big notable difference)
3)Wait and save some more money until I can get a better quality sound card
4)???

Option number 4 is, of course, other options I'm not aware of. I have read a lot here about DAC and amps, but I'm still a bit sketchy on all that and don't understand it well enough to make an informed decision.

If I have missed any information that I should give or anything else, please let me know.

All help is appreciated, and many thanks in advance.

 

[atx 6speed]

I think it is definitely worth upgrading. I would suggest getting something within your budget, like an Asus Xonar DX or an HT Omega Striker card. They're huge upgrades over the Realtek and they still fall in your budget.

 

[Chris_h]

Hmmm... Would it really make that huge of a difference, even with such a budget? I know its integrated, but its also HD, and it has 7.1 surround, so I was under the impression that it was still good enough to compete with sound cards of around $40-$50, and that the ones around $80 did not offer so much of a difference as to justify spending that much.

 

[Alydon]

To answer your question...... Yes, a wisely chosen card in that price range would make a big difference - to me anyway.

If I were in your position I'd probably notice a big improvement in soundstage imaging, detail resolution, and directional/distance cue accuracy when going from a Realtek onboard to one of the cards atx 6speed suggested (I second his suggestions, btw. Both are excellent choices for you). Especially with those headphones you are getting, which I understand are one of the better options for gaming. But then I've been at this for a while and have been gaming w/ decent headphones/sources of one type or another for a number of years now (though I'm still a headphone novice compared to many here).

Unfortunately I really can't tell you if you'll notice too much of a difference, at least off the bat. Since you're new to this is it's hard to say how you'll react initially. You might not notice much difference at first other than a clearer sound, and then learn over time to "grow into the sound" and slowly gain more benefit/enjoyment from it as you become accustomed to it. Or, you might be totally blown away by the difference and kick yourself for waiting so long to get something better (that's what happened to me)!

All I can say is take it slowly at first. Find out how the new headphones affect your gaming experience. And wait at least a week or two while the headphones burn-in and they start to open up and really try to pay close attention to how the new phones change the sound cues in whatever game(s) you play.

Then if you do notice a big improvement, then go on to a new sound card. In the $40-$80 range you'll be hard pressed to find better gaming cards that also provide high -quality music like the Xonar D1/DX or Striker can. The price range you've given can be dangerous territory as there's a lot of variation in sound quality in there, but it is also IMO a good sweet-spot where you really can get great sound for a good bargain price. But since you're new to this I'd be hesitant to suggest you go much higher than that price-wise until you get a taste for what high-quality sound can give you...

...Unless you have lotsa money burning a hole in your pocket, in which case there's this lovely little card called the Xonar Essence STX for only 200 clams....

Anyway I hope this helps.... And btw, Welcome to Head-Fi! Sorry about your wallet.....!

 

[genclaymore]

Yes you dont want to use AD-700 with onboard, they dont sound the way they should if you do. I had to at one point waiting for my prelude to come, lets say I wanted to rip the onboard chip out and trow it at the wall.

 

[Chris_h]

@genclaymore: Wow, it was really that bad, even with an onboard chip that was high quality? I mean I've had onboard audio that was very terrible before, but the one I have now actually seemed decent. Guess not.

@Alydon: Thanks a lot for the informative reply. I think I am convinced on getting a sound card then, seems to make much of a difference. I'll take your advice and wait a week or 2 after getting the headphones before buying a sound card.

As for a sound card, while my price range is $40 - $80, I'd be willing to save a bit more (Like to around $100) if it gets me a card that is much more superior than one from the $40-80 range. Not to mention cards that seem to be on sale or something, for example, I saw that the Creative Sound Blaster PCI Express X-Fi Titanium (NOT Fatal1ty) is $75.00 at ebay while it is $99 at newegg. Would this card be much of an improvement over the Xonar D1/DX and the others you and atx 6speed suggested? Oh and thanks for the welcome!

EDIT: I mostly use my computer and headphones for gaming and music, and the occasional movie here and there. I don't know if this can determine if I should get a different card.

 

[genclaymore]

actually the one you was asking about is the onboard i was using while waiting for the card.

 

[DarkScythe]

Well, it seems all the more experienced audiophiles will never think about using onboard sound, but for a newbie/amateur.. I wouldn't be so quick to kill it, especially if on a budget. Now, I don't have the AD-700 - my most "audiophilic" products after being on Head-Fi are Yuin OK2 earbuds for my portable and Audioengine 5's for my PC. However, correct me if I'm wrong, but the AD-700 seem to have an impedance of 32ohms, which isn't that much. Onboard sound should be able to drive them without issue. If it were higher, then maybe you would need an amp, but in this case it should be fine, power-wise.

Sound quality-wise though, onboard isn't THAT bad, in my opinion. I have the Realtek ALC889A onboard sound, as well as an old SB Audigy 1 that I kind of stopped using. RMAA spec'd the Realtek as slightly better, so I used it. Now after browsing these forums, I was also wondering about upgrading to a discrete sound card, but I wasn't sure how much of a sound quality jump I would notice, being new to this audio business. Stuff that sounds the same to me, my friend claims sounds very different (he's the audiophile, not me.)

He loaned me his firewire-based Echo Audiofire2 to compare with (so I hopefully don't waste money.) I've listened to it extensively, and even upgraded from my old speakers midway through to try and find something substantial, but I really couldn't. That is not to say I didn't notice anything - I noticed the bass was not as boomy compared with the onboard, and the background instruments were brought out in greater detail. However, these sounded like somewhat small upgrades, and not the "night and day" differences everyone seems to be talking about everywhere with regard to onboard. I had to actively try to listen for them to spot them, and during normal listening I wouldn't notice. Of course, it is also entirely possible that I simply do not know what to listen for, but then again, I'm a newbie to all this - providing a newbie's perspective. Some of the "pro's" here will spot minute differences in opamps, but if you're new to audio, don't assume you will instantly be able to spot all the tiny nuances as well.

My recommendation would be to see if a friend as anything you can borrow for a bit, or if not, buy from a place that has a good return policy and try it out. I personally would like a Xonar Essence myself, but seeing as how the difference isn't very substantial with the Audiofire, I don't think I'm going to bother just yet.

 

[Chris_h]

Well, the thing for me is that, as a gamer, 3D positional audio is very important, and what I currently have is EAX 1.0/2.0.... The Xonar DX is also EAX 2.0, but I heard something about it being emulated to sound like 5.0, while at the same time having the Audio Processing Unit of the D2X, which I heard is one of the best. Also, it doesn't have DTS. On the other hand, the Creative Sound Blaster PCI-E X-Fi Titanium is just about the same price, has EAX 5.0 3D positional audio, however I don't know if the Audio Processing Unit measures up to the DX's. Does anyone know?

 

[atx 6speed]

From what I have read Creative's cards will always do better with EAX, but EAX is slowly dying in favor of other 3D positioning models. Because EAX is proprietary to Creative other companies have to do their best to emulate it. That being said, if games are your main priority and you use a lot of games with EAX then go for a Creative card. I know that they handle games nicely and their drivers aren't TOO bad, although many still complain about them.

Between the Xonar DX and the HT Omega Striker I have read that the Xonar performs better with gaming. Both cards do their best to emulate EAX, but will have their shortcomings. The good news for you is that it is no longer a one-company world when it comes to soundcards and you have options.

 

[genclaymore]

DarkScythe the onboard will not drive the AD700 right, both ALC888 and ALC889 doesnt do the justice for the AD700. So he would still need to get a sound card. I know because as I said I had to put in my A2zs while I awayed the prelude on pre-order when it came out because of the onboard audio not driving them. It made them sound bad.

And the xonars emulation eax3-5 is do to DSGX, for me DSGX2.5 works very well in a bunch of games I tried.

 

[rehban]

Going to have to agree with the above, I own the ATH-AD900 and when plugged into my ALC889A, it sounded like complete garbage. Hollow, distorted, lifeless, regardless of application.

Sound card upgrade made a complete difference for me (x-fi forte).

 

[Chris_h]

I checked Creative's list of EAX-supported games and the ones I play aren't on there. Considering this, would the DX perform just as well as the X-Fi? Also, does anyone know if both of these cards are enough to drive the AD700, or will I need to get a separate amp or something?

I have read a lot that creative's drivers aren't all that great, specially with Vista x64(which is what I have)... how about the Xonar DX's?

What I need is something that plays both music and games good, and though I don't watch movies as much as I play music and games, I would like for it to be able to play movies decently as well. As for gaming, the most important thing I need for it to do, in conjunction with the AD700, is allow me to pinpoint very precisely where sounds are coming from. Which sound card can do this, and still give me good quality music-listening?

 

[rehban]

To answer the first part, from my perspective anyway, even though most people will say otherwise...

As a former owner of the Xonar DX, again IMO, the asus drivers can be just as awful if not more so than the creative drivers, with respects to legacy games. Most of the problems with crashing and other bugs with more recent games have been attributed to Asus's GX 2.0 implementation.

I had nothing but problems getting my library (and I have a very large library of games) to work properly in terms of overall game smoothness, audio glitching, messed up voices and such. And I had GX 2.0 constantly turned off. See ASUS forum for a large list of games incompatible with it's GX feature as well as some other similar accounts.

Out of the box drivers with the Xonar DX will crash recent games such as Mass Effect and Oblivion, whereas I found the latest drivers available for download would fix one issue and open up another. As of this writing, official drivers for the card have not been updated since september. Bad.

Now with that said, the card did sound fantastic. All the different EQ settings worked for the most part as they should, and as a budget card it definitely delivers on what it's supposed to.

Generally you will see the recommendation get Asus for Vista and Creative for XP, but I can attest that both work just fine under Vista as well as Windows 7 beta.

As far as performance goes, it seems more relative than anything these days. There are some reviews online but there is a limit to what a sound card review can accurately describe. It's all about your ears.

As far as the sound stage issue goes, since every card has their own way of simulating 3D sound, that does not matter as much as getting a superb quality pair of cans with excellent stage, which the AD-700 has. I have yet to find an accurate comparison of the different technologies used coupled with a real pair of stereo headphones.

Hope this helps.

 

[DarkScythe]

Well, I'll stand corrected then and take your word for it on the headphones. I don't have first hand experience, so I'm only going by specs here.

Anyway, the OP appears to be looking for something similar to what I would like - a "gaming" card that also has great sound quality. It seems it's not a very easy combination though. On the "gaming" front, you have Creative and their EAX, which is awesome in games when it actually works, but Creative's drivers cause nothing but headaches for me. Also, games are moving away from EAX support, with one major factor being Vista's change in sound architecture. Users also report their sound quality could use some help.

In this case, the Auzentech Prelude seems to fit the bill, using the X-fi chip for EAX as well as "better" circuitry for music. But of course, it's fairly old and I've not heard much about their driver stability. Along these lines, the other "music" oriented cards like the Xonar series appear to have driver issues with many games. If they work perfectly for the games you play, then awesome. However, I play a wide range of games, both new and old and it would be unacceptable for even one game to be rendered unplayable due to it. For example, users reported the Xonar would cause a BSOD when trying to run WoW. I don't play this game, but millions of other users apparently do, and if such a game caused their drivers to crash, I seriously wonder what other, less popular games may crash. Such a type of card also targets a group of users who don't particularly game very often, so the companies may not be inclined to fix their drivers very often for game compatibility.

One "solution" so far seems to be to get a card like the Xonar purely for music, and then switch to onboard for gaming. IIRC, the Realtek's support EAX 2.0 which is what my current Audigy has I believe. But then again, I'm not sure if the drivers would still get in the way even if you're not using the card for gaming.