General Space Question
Jun 6, 2007 at 12:23 PM Post #46 of 73
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Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Even though the poster later admitted that it was a mistake, and wasn't correct??
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Einstein's main theory is that of relativity: you can't just say that light is just traveling away from us. It's all dependent on the object in question and where you are in relation to it.



Yup; and Lorentz transformations add even more fun to the subject when you see how velocity and gravity play into things!

Rumor has it that even the GPS system wouldn't work without taking them into consideration......nifty!
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Jun 6, 2007 at 1:20 PM Post #47 of 73
This thread is absolutely fascinating! Thanks to the OP for starting it. So much better than the "polls" that plagued the Members' Lounge for a while.

I stopped trying to understand physics when "spin" and "flavors" came into it. What the hell does all that mean?

But my favorite phenomenon of all time is space-time curvature. My first instinct about this question is the fact that light is bent by gravitational forces and that any light that old would be distorted beyond all recognition. But then f107plus5's comment cleared things up a little more:

How could any phenomenon like the the big bang be perceivable when the elements that compose our perceivable universe were non-existent at the time?
 
Jun 6, 2007 at 2:35 PM Post #49 of 73
What amazes me most about making all these discoveries is the fact that here we are, nothing more than the stuff blown off from exploding massive stars, but yet, here we are, evolved to be able to understand the universe(or maybe "Omniverse" heh, heh, heh! )that we are actually the waste products of.

Freaky! But Cool!

What's so sad about it all is that so few people of Earth realize the significance of what we really are.

They watch all those movies and talk about "Space Aliens" yet here we are after all; "Aliens in Training"!!

...and spin is what a baseball or news story does. And only Baskin Robbins has all those flavors. And just what colors ARE those Quarks in a bag anyway!! It sure can be hard to keep track of!
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People of Earth are so under rated by people of Earth!
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Jun 6, 2007 at 3:02 PM Post #50 of 73
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Originally Posted by GlendaleViper /img/forum/go_quote.gif
The only thing I corrected was my comment on the duration of light years. Otherwise I still stand by my comments:

- Space is a romantic pursuit



It seemed to me that the main subject of the quote was on the duration of light years, so that's why I was alarmed that the other poster thought it was the most correct of any of the responses on this thread.....but it's all relative
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Quote:

Originally Posted by GlendaleViper /img/forum/go_quote.gif
- Light we see is here and now, not there and then.


Relativity also deals with time....isn't it such a grand theory
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Quote:

Originally Posted by F107plus5 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Yup; and Lorentz transformations add even more fun to the subject when you see how velocity and gravity play into things!

Rumor has it that even the GPS system wouldn't work without taking them into consideration......nifty!



I had no idea what the Lorentz transformation was, but when you mentioned velocity and gravity....images of bending space-time flashed in my head
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Too many episodes of Star Trek....warp drive makes it an easier concept for me
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So even on this minuscule planet we call mother Earth, you have to take it into consideration? That is a mind trip.

Speaking of mind trips, this thread is making me want to see the end of 2001 again. Well it's the closest thing I'll get to space-time conundrums (in all likelihood at least).
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Quote:

Originally Posted by F107plus5 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
People of Earth are so under rated by people of Earth!
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That's the most philosophical post I've ever seen on this board
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So you're an astrophysicist, an audio junkie, and a philosopher F107
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Jun 6, 2007 at 3:18 PM Post #51 of 73
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Originally Posted by RedLeader /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Okay... but to believe that you have to accept string theory. I wish the physics community weren't so utterly draconian in their squashing of alternative theories. One of the reasons I never bothered with that line of work, if you don't buy into string theory, you pretty much can't make it today. And come on... if you've done the research how can you possibly take string theory as anything other than a whimsical farce?


I'm almost finished reading the excellent book The Trouble with Physics -- the Rise of String Theory, the Fall of a Science by Lee Smolin, which addresses exactly this problem.

This is a sobering and provocative book at the same time: Smolin is alarmed by his observation that theoretical physics has stopped -- in the sense that there is no new, fundamental theory that makes experimentally confirmable predictions -- since the early 80s. Smolin attributes this crises, which has never occurred ever since the days of Newton, to the physics community being caught up in a wild-goose chase called String Theory.

Smolin, who has himself spent years on String Theory research, recounts how the theory initially won the collective enthusiasm -- including his own -- of the physics community. Reading the pages, you can almost share his own bright-eyed excitement in those days: at long last, we have a theory that asks for so few assumptions, has such an elegant formulation, and promises solutions to age-old puzzles. It seemed that the final act of theoretical physics was upon us.

Yet, as more brilliant minds are being dedicated to string theory, it became apparent to Smolin (and a small handful of others) that string theory is getting nowhere. Two of the most important problems are:

1. We're not talking about one string theory. Depending on such things as how those funky extra spatial dimensions are "coiled up", there are at least 10 to the power 500 possible string theories -- and that's not counting renegade theories which says that matter doesn't exist or that the universe degenerate into a black hole soon after it was born. There is no way to put so many theories to test: if one theory doesn't agree with experiment, you can always fall back on another. Hence, string theory is virtually unconfirmable, virtually unfalsifyable, and has no predictive power -- and that is bad science.

2. One of the greatest insights of General Relativity is that space and time are not fixed; the mere presence of matter and energy distorts space-time. The current formulations of string theroies, however, tacitly assume that the fundamental entities (be they strings or higher-dimensional "branes") move and interact in an unchanging, classical space-time. String theories initally promised to unite General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, and it is ironic that it pays no heed to something so essential to General Relativity.

Smolin also reasons that appeal to the Anthropic Principle, fashionable among physicists, is a lost cause: anthropic principle has never explained anything (contrary to what has been claimed by many authors), nor it ever will.

In the final part of the book (which I'm still reading), Smolin investigates the "sociology" of the physics community, and the psychology behind. He states that, in the US, a graduate of theoretical physics has basically no hope of getting a job unless he or she specialises in string theory. String theory have monopolized the brightest of minds, and alternate theories -- Smolin recounts a few: unsurprisingly, all originated in Europe -- has no chance to develop.
 
Jun 6, 2007 at 3:27 PM Post #52 of 73
Quote:

Originally Posted by RedLeader /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Okay... but to believe that you have to accept string theory. I wish the physics community weren't so utterly draconian in their squashing of alternative theories. One of the reasons I never bothered with that line of work, if you don't buy into string theory, you pretty much can't make it today. And come on... if you've done the research how can you possibly take string theory as anything other than a whimsical farce?



I'm confused. The post implies you have done string theory research while, concomitantly, you never bothered with that line of work?

Those physicist who defend theories are not draconians; it's only a theory, after all. Physicist who appear draconian are doing their job. Still, there are alternatives that are thriving:
http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/16/11/9

We should be careful to separate the actual physics community (those in the sub-field in question) from us, the laymen. 99% of us don't speak the language theoretical physicist use to communicate most succinctly - mathematics. Sadly, we are limited by our language as to what we can understand. Without the mathematic foundation these theories don't exist, so how much can we know about a subject if we don't understand its foundation? We're stuck with interpreting an interpretation. And that sucks, because it is such a spooky, romantic, and interesting topic.
 
Jun 6, 2007 at 3:53 PM Post #53 of 73
I really miss my old Einstein T-shirt. It had Albert on the front holding his stomach(his GUT in this case)and the words "don't let gravity get you down". It was really cool!

Ah; 2001. I remember when I first saw it, it was at the drive-in in the late 60s, it was on as a double feature with Jane Fonda in "Barbarella". One movie took you into space and left you there, the other took you into space but brought you decidedly back to Earth!
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Kind of an odd pair to show at the same time, I thought.

We've had 2001 on Beta, on VHS and on DVD, but never got Barbarella. Strange.

Funny also how I expected, considering the current events of the time, that the traveling to the moon part at least would most likely be true by 2001. Maybe even by Pan Am.

And speaking of Star Trek, unless I'm mistaken, Kahn and his cronies, as the centerpiece of Star Trek 2, I believe, had been sent from the Earth in something like 1993.

Yeah; the space program almost seems to have lost a few decades there.

It's a tough question though; the one between spending bunches of bucks to go to unfriendly or inhospitable locations...nice people live in Canada, but nobody wants to live in the far north inland, and you can even BREATH up there! Going back to the Moon or Mars could be lots of fun, but there really isn't much to do there. I'd almost like to see the available moneys spent on advanced next-generation and-beyond space telescopes, or even better adaptive optics for ground based units, or a probe to go ice fishing near Jupiter. We just don't currently have the technology to go very far very fast. The worst part would be jumping on the very latest vehicle available today for an extra-solar system jaunt only to be passed half way to the destination by the next generation vehicle twenty years later who is in turn passed by the next gen right at the finish line.
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Jun 6, 2007 at 4:15 PM Post #54 of 73
Jun 6, 2007 at 4:17 PM Post #55 of 73
Quote:

Originally Posted by F107plus5 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
People of Earth are so under rated by people of Earth!
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I think highly of people of earth. I think they are created in God's image, not just space dust
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Jun 6, 2007 at 4:19 PM Post #56 of 73
You know, with the relative frequency of email chains and forum polls questioning the preferred way to die, I find it curious that I have never seen the following as an option for expiration:

Fall into a black hole.

If I gotta die, then that's how I want to do it.
 
Jun 6, 2007 at 4:20 PM Post #57 of 73
The biggest problem as I see it with string theory is that with todays, or maybe even next weeks technology there is no easy way to nail down how to realistically test it. We have bigger and badder racetracks being built or in development, but even they will be limited in what they can do with understanding the extremely small and fragile. Predictive mathematics could be fun if we could narrow the theories down to just one.....or at least less than a dozen models.


Well; for the longest time we felt the "Ether"(sp?) was the medium photons and gravity traveled through, science is only the sum of what we know when we know it; I guess.
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Maybe next year.
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Jun 6, 2007 at 4:24 PM Post #58 of 73
Quote:

Originally Posted by F107plus5 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
And speaking of Star Trek, unless I'm mistaken, Kahn and his cronies, as the centerpiece of Star Trek 2, I believe, had been sent from the Earth in something like 1993.

Yeah; the space program almost seems to have lost a few decades there.



Classic and the next generation Star Trek were what I was into growing up. I did notice that writers for Star Trek would either try to push back the chronology of events that were already supposed to happen, or some would just let it be. At least since we're dealing with worlds that have the space-time paradoxes happening all the time, why can't we suspend our disbelief that there was some genetic supermen like Khan already born? Heck, Khan already could be alive and is part of a government experiment, but we don't know about it yet
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Once man hit the moon, and our Cold War fizzled out, it seemed space travel lost its luster. Until we do have warp drive, I personally feel that space travel is more cost and scientifically effective with robotic space travel. Are we losing anything with data collection using a Mars rover instead of an astronaut? It's not as romantic, but it's much easier to send a robot out into space then a human. Plus you don't feel as bad if something goes wrong and a robot gets unplugged. You'd feel awful if you send a person out into Mars, and they get lost and become "space dust"
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Jun 6, 2007 at 4:26 PM Post #59 of 73
Quote:

Originally Posted by GlendaleViper /img/forum/go_quote.gif
You know, with the relative frequency of email chains and forum polls questioning the preferred way to die, I find it curious that I have never seen the following as an option for expiration:

Fall into a black hole.

If I gotta die, then that's how I want to do it.



Oooh...Spagetification! I dunno! Being X-rayed from the inside out? I dunno about that one either. And then, maybe with such high velocities and immense gravity, time would stop and you'd be stuck there being endlessly X-rayed and pulled into spaghetti...forever. And ya can't call home!
 
Jun 6, 2007 at 4:30 PM Post #60 of 73
Quote:

Originally Posted by robm321 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I think highly of people of earth. I think they are created in God's image, not just space dust
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Unfortunately; too many people of Earth feel that they are put there just for their own benefit to be taken advantage of at their whim.
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....but hey! Space dust to space dust! Cool!
 

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